Midnight Voices Web Digest, week 44 (MV1219-1234)

Midnight Voices

The discussion forum for fans of Pete Atkin and Clive James,
their works and collaborators on stage, TV, disc and in print.

Web Digest week 44 (28.06.98, MV1219-1234) begins | index | prev | next |
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Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:21:32 +0100
From: Christine Guilfoyle <email address>
Subject: MV1219 Re: MV1208; MV1203; MV1189; MV1187: Covers: Pete and Randy

>
>LIGHT relief from Richard Thompson and Kevin Coyne??! We'll have to update the
>typical MV profile to include suffering from catatonic depression. 
>
If the choice in my padded cell is between 'Close to the Edge' and, say,
'Marjory Razorblade' or 'End of the Rainbow' (to name the most
depressing Coyne/Thompson tracks I can think of, off-hand), I'd go for
the latter every time. Or better still 'History and Geography'. 
-- 
Mike Walters

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From: Ian Chippett <email address>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:14:10 EDT
Subject: MV1220: Prince of Acquitaine

I was singing the above song while I was driving home from work tonight and it
occurred to me that I didn't know what the spoilers are which send you sliding
down the drain. Is this a weird Australian expression?

Ian C

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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:02:57 +0100
From: Pete Smith <email address>
Subject: MV1221 Re: MV1220: Prince of Acquitaine

>I was singing the above song while I was driving home from work tonight and it
>occurred to me that I didn't know what the spoilers are which send you sliding
>down the drain. Is this a weird Australian expression?
>
The spoilers are the plane's flaps. "Sliding down the drain" is the sinking
feeling which comes with the sudden change of direction/height as the plane
comes in to land.
-- 
Pete Smith

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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:53:45 -0400
From: JOHN RAMSEY <email address>
Subject: MV1222 re.MV1220: Prince of Acquitaine

Ian writes;

>I was singing the above song while I was driving home from work tonight and it
>occurred to me that I didn't know what the spoilers are which send you sliding
>down the drain. Is this a weird Australian expression?

I think this refers to the flaps being deployed as the aircraft descends,
and the sensations this causes.

CJ is something of an aviation enthusiast, I remember him describing
watching "the magic suitcase of the Boeing wing unpacking itself" as the
plane descended. I'm not sure if its technically true to say an airliner
has spoilers,  rather than flaps - but it scans and is a more apt word.

John Ramsey

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From: Dave Jones <email address>
Subject: MV1223 RE: MV1220: Prince of Acquitaine
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:10:00 -0400

>I was singing the above song while I was driving home from work tonight and it
>occurred to me that I didn't know what the spoilers are which send you sliding
>down the drain. Is this a weird Australian expression?
>
>Ian C

I always assumed they were the flaps, like our other respondents. In "Postcard 
from Sydney" Clive revisits the image of the song almost exactly. Arriving home 
in an aluminium can that he portrays as a flying chemical toilet ("full of 
cerulean goo") he describes looking out at the jewelled city as the flaps come 
down. I suppose that it's the noise of the hydraulics that draws your attention 
out of the window just as you get to the altitude where the street lights start 
to look like diamonds embedded in pearls.  There's a similar image in "History 
and Geography".

There are other places in the James canon where fragments from the songs 
surface. For instance, the poet Laforge, he of the missed trains, shows up in 
the downtown LA office of one Philip Marlowe, private eye, as Clive reviews the 
works of Raymond Chandler.  Most writers re-use images and metaphors**, of 
course, but we're lucky enough to have one who can (or once could) do it in the 
confines of a song lyric as well as on the expanse of the prose page.

Dave Jones
Staring out of the window in Rochester NY.

** metaphor (n) - Modern Greek word for airport luggage cart.  Honest!

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From: Dave Fisher <email address>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:20:42 GMT
Subject: MV1224 Re: MV1223; MV1220: Prince of Acquitaine

> 
> Dave Jones
> Staring out of the window in Rochester NY.
> 
> ** metaphor (n) - Modern Greek word for airport luggage cart.  Honest!
> 

That accounts for it!
In Heraklion Airport all those years ago. 
"These metaphors are murder" sighed our kids.

Dave Fisher

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From: Ian Chippett <email address>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:57:04 EDT
Subject: MV1225 Re : MV1224; MV1223; MV1220: Prince of Acquitaine

Thanks for all your answers to my query about spoilers. Now for an artistic 
question about the same song. Does anyone else find the end of the song a bit 
off-putting when Pete's voice (multi-tracked) goes up too high at the end of 
the last verse? I wonder if he tries to sing exactly the same ending minus the 
harmonies when he performs this song in concert or is there a different live 
version? Which leads to another overwhelming question. Are there any songs 
which we would like him to re-do in some way?

Ian C

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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:38:44 -0400
From: JOHN RAMSEY <email address>
Subject: MV1226 Re: MV1224; MV1223; MV1220: Prince of Acquitaine

"Metaphor"= modern greek word for a carriage, including railway carriages and, 
apparently luggage trolleys. Also, a word which acts as a carriage for another 
meaning. The word "metaphor" is thus itself a metaphor. Get your head round 
that if you feel like murder!

John Ramsey

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From: "andy and lynn" <email address>
Subject: MV1227 Re: MV1225; MV1224; MV1223; MV1220: Prince of Acquitaine
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:20:49 +0100

>Are there any songs which we would like him to re-do in some 
>way?

Yes, I would like all the songs rewritten with new words and new tunes and 
then rerecorded by someone with a different voice and a differnt band. Hey it 
could sound like the Beatles if we all put in our best ideas.  Or maybe not.  
I've always thought that the point of art is that the artist gets to exercise 
their judgement and the audience gets to respond.  The notion of pretty fine 
music being edited by a committee is a scary one.

Here are a few unexpected responses to Atkin which surely support my point.  
My eight year old son, on hearing I see the Joker, said 'I just can't help 
dancing to this type of music.  My friend Dick said 'But it doesn't have any 
melody.'  My friend Steve denied any interest in the lyrics of songs but went 
out and bought as many of the albums as he could find anyway.  I'm sure those 
three could think of a way to 'improve' the material but I wouldn't like the 
results as much.

Still at least I know what 'heights of arrogance' are now.

the stuff about metphore's reminds me of the World Cup's best line of 
commentary.  David Pleat explained how Colin Calderwood always had to turn 
inside to cross a ball, saying 'its because he literally doesn't have a right 
foot....well not <i>literally</i>.

Andy

==============================================================================
From: Ian Chippett <email address>
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:07:22 EDT
Subject: MV1228: ...as he rolled into the flame.

Andy, 

My idea in asking other Voices whether they had anything they would like to 
see re-done in Pete's repertoire was quite innocent. I've always found the 
final line of "Prince of Aquitaine" a bit strained from a vocal point of view 
(like the harmonies in "Little Sammy Speedball") though I love both songs.

Pete always had to work under budgetary limitations and I'm sure he would 
have liked to have done certain songs in a different way given more time and 
money.

I should perhaps have addressed my question to Pete which I hereby do at the 
same time withdrawing my previous request. 

Pete, are there any songs you would like to have done differently (in terms 
of arrangement, production, orchestration etc)?

Is that non-arrogant enough for you, Andy?

Cheers!

Ian C

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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 22:58:22 +0100
From: Leslie Moss <email address> 
Subject: MV1229 Re: MV1228: ...as he rolled into the flame.

Can I lend my support to Ian's comments on songs that might be redone? I 
interpreted his remarks in the manner he intended. There seems nothing wrong 
with a periodic reinterpretation of much-loved songs - the whole "unplugged" 
movement is testimony to that. And at Monyash, Pete reinterpreted songs like 
Biro in a way that made them work much better live and in the the nineties.

Dylan is capable of so reinterpreting songs live that you can get halfway 
through them before working out what the song is supposed to be!

And I agree about the final line of Prince of Acquitaine - it doesn't quite 
work for me, but in all honesty I hadn't realised it until Ian pointed it out!

While I'm writing, some suggestions for non PA/CJ songs for Pete to cover 
would include:

- anything by Richard Thompson (especially, When the Spell is Broken)

- The Drugs Don't Work (Richard Ashcroft)

Leslie 

==============================================================================
From: "andy and lynn" <email address>
Subject: MV1230 Re: MV1229; MV1228: ...as he rolled into the flame.
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 12:26:04 +0100

My point, which Ian accepts, was that there is a world of difference between 
an artist reinterpreting songs and an audience trying to impose its own taste.  
the latter smacks of the advance screenings in Hollywood where they change the 
ending to suit the audience.  It makes the audience feel comfortable and hits 
the lowest common denominator and hence makes money.

It isn't, however, art.  In some ways, the bits that you don't like define the 
piece as much as the bits that you do.  I was going to go on and say something 
about the ways in which we interact with art.  I found myself, however, 
disappearing up my own arse and, in any case, Mike Walters said it better some 
months ago in an earlier MV discussion.

Andy

==============================================================================
From: Ian Chippett <email address>
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:08:57 EDT
Subject: MV1231 Re : MV1229; MV1228: ...as he rolled into the flame.

Of course, why didn't I think of it? I can just imagine Pete doing "The End of 
the Rainbow" or "Night comes in" by Richard Thompson. Good idea, Leslie! 

Ian C

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Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:04:03 +0100
From: Christine Guilfoyle <email address>
Subject: MV1232 Re: MV1229; MV1228: ...as he rolled into the flame.

>
>Dylan is capable of so reinterpreting songs live that you can get halfway
>through them before working out what the song is supposed to be!
>
>And I agree about the final line of Prince of Acquitaine - it doesn't quite
>work for me, but in all honesty I hadn't realised it until Ian pointed it out!
>
Could I at this point just put in a request to Pete that at Buxton he
doesn't 'reinterpret' any of his songs in quite the way that Dylan's
wont to do these days. 

Oh, and if Ian's spotted any other bits of the recorded works that don't
quite work, please could he just keep them to himself. I've enjoyed this
stuff for 20 years, and I could do without someone pointing out the
flaws to me. I'm already nervous about going back to POA. But then
Ithought that Rickenbacker was a pilot, so I'm probably okay.
-- 
Mike Walters

==============================================================================
From: Cary <email address>
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 19:39:10 +0000
Subject: MV1233 Re: MV1232; MV1229; MV1228: ...as he rolled into the flame.

Mike wrote,

> Oh, and if Ian's spotted any other bits of the recorded
> works that don't quite work, please could he just keep
> them to himself. I've enjoyed this stuff for 20 years, and
> I could do without someone pointing out the flaws to me.

Isn't the point of this discussion forum to discuss? And surely dislike of one 
note, or line or even track doesn't condemn the whole lot. One persons 'flaw' 
is anothers stroke of brilliance.With listening some of those bits that grated 
to start with become part of the tapestry that the songs weave for us.Can't we 
talk about that?

Cary
Donning her asbestos suit !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~        
ROCK FOLLIES - The Classic 1970's TV Drama starring 
Julie Covington, Charlotte Cornwell and Rula Lenska. 
Online at:-  http://members.xoom.com/Follies
Pictures,sounds and much more (unofficial site)
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regards - Cary (like Mary with a 'C' for cat)

==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 15:48:02 +0100
From: Kenneth Hutchinson <email address>
Subject: MV1234 Re: MV1232; MV1229; MV1228: ...as he rolled into the flame.

>>
>Could I at this point just put in a request to Pete that at Buxton he
>doesn't 'reinterpret' any of his songs in quite the way that Dylan's
>wont to do these days. 
>
I disagree, I for one would like to hear some radical re-interpretations
of Pete's work. We already have the first drafts and after 20 years
isn't it time to take some risks. How else can an artists work improve
other than 'risking it all on the throw of a dice'. 

Regards,
Ken
-- 
Ken Hutchinson
<email address>
http://www.idmon.demon.co.uk/index.htm

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