Midnight Voices                      
The discussion forum for fans of Pete Atkin and Clive James,
their works and collaborators on stage, TV, disc and in print.

Web Digest week 23 (01.02.98, MV661 - 689) begins | index | prev | next |
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Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 18:28:42 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV661 Re: MV659, MV656 etc.: The Beautiful Changes; Wilbur; Paper Wings

Pete agrees with Mike's interpretation re the cloverleaf crossing -- I
think I was just too dumb to complete the circle when Pete confirmed  the
intersection theory some time back.

Typing course needed: somehow Richard Wilbur became "Wibur" in MV656.

Pete accepts blame for the error in not crediting Clive for words and music
to Paper Wings on the festival CD. I claim my share: I should have quizzed
him before compiling the tray liner graphic.

-- Steve

==============================================================================
From: Cary <email address>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 23:05:52 +0000
Subject: MV662 Re: MV659; MV658; MV655; MV651; MV650: The Beautiful Changes

>I think this verse is about someone revisiting a 'green-covered
>place' only to find that it is now surrounded by a motorway
>intersection 'cloverleaf', and has thus been corrupted.

"The clover leaf crossing now ties in a ring"
NOW ties in a ring. It was a clover leaf crossing - the green covered 
place WAS a clover leaf crossing and NOW ties in a ring. Has the 
intersection become a roundabout?! Or has it got nothing to do with 
roads? I still like my idea of a cloverleaf crossing being a lucky 
meeting - OK so I know it doesn't necessarily fit in with the rest of 
it ..... or does it? .... "The lovers are judged and condemned 
unaccused"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~        
ROCK FOLLIES - The Classic 1970's TV Drama starring 
Julie Covington, Charlotte Cornwell and Rula Lenska. 
Online at:-  http://members.xoom.com/Follies
Pictures,sounds and much more (unofficial site)
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regards - Cary (like Mary with a 'C' for cat)

==============================================================================
From: IChippett<email address>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:29:27 EST
Subject: MV663 Re : MV662; MV659; MV658; MV655; MV651; MV650: The Beautiful Changes

O.K. So Clive could have written:
    The cloverleaf crossing now ties in a ring
    The green-covered place that I went to in spring
    With a notebook and what cigarettes I could bring...."
If we assume that the cloverleaf crossing is some kind of motorway junction (a
bit abstruse, IMHO) and it is now spoiling the original site (but why "ties in
a ring?")  then the verse makes sense of sorts. But now we have the second
verse which speaks of "the men with a dream who are never refused"  who "drum
up the exciting to reap the unused". What does this mean and what does it have
to do with the previous verse? Sorry to appear pedantic (I live in France
after all!) and/or thick but even when some songs are difficult to grasp (Like
"TFMOTH") I still love them. Here I am lost. Brace yourselves, there are nine
verses.

==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:58:58 GMT
From: <email address> (Michael J. Cross)
Subject: MV664 Re: MV663; MV662; MV659; MV658; MV655; MV651; MV650: The Beautiful
 Changes

In message <email address> Midnight Voices writes:
} From: IChippett<email address>
} Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:29:27 EST
} 
} O.K. So Clive could have written:
}     The cloverleaf crossing now ties in a ring
}     The green-covered place that I went to in spring
}     With a notebook and what cigarettes I could bring...."
} If we assume that the cloverleaf crossing is some kind of motorway junction (a
} bit abstruse, IMHO) and it is now spoiling the original site (but why "ties in
} a ring?")  then the verse makes sense of sorts. 

As far as a patch of green within the loop of a cloverleaf is concerned, it
is surrounded, ie ringed, by the road. And the grass is likely not to  be
as healthy as it was before the motorway was built.

I think each, or at least most, of the verses are structured in the same way in
that the first 2 lines describe something/someone beautiful, the 3rd line
describes how it changes or dies, and the 4th repeats, with one  variant,
the title.

} But now we have the second
} verse which speaks of "the men with a dream who are never refused"  who "drum
} up the exciting to reap the unused". What does this mean and what does it have
} to do with the previous verse? 

I can't work this one out but I think it does share a structure with the 
other verses.

Verse 3: the 'beautiful people' pair up, marry, and live the 'beautiful life'
which is spoilt when they 'crack up together from making the grade'.

Verse 4: people stop what they are doing 'pull into the kerb', 'crowd out
the bars' to watch 'an astronaut fall towards Mars', and then the astronaut,
or perhaps an idiot commentator, spoils the moment by 'talking in cliche's'.

Verse 6: I'm not sure of this one ... the 3rd line could be someone dying
from cold or fire ... and he finally learns ?

Verse 7: aircraft leaving contrails in the sunset sky, but then the planes
'turn eastward' to engage the approaching enemy - ?literally 'the  dark'?

Verses 7-9: I can't come up with a convincing explanation for these ...
but the middle lines of the last verse seem to contrast the unchanging 
'inhuman' with the, unfortunately always temporary, 'beautiful'.

} Sorry to appear pedantic (I live in France
} after all!) and/or thick but even when some songs are difficult to grasp (Like
} "TFMOTH") I still love them. Here I am lost. Brace yourselves, there are nine
} verses.

all the best,
-- 
 Michael J. Cross    BSFA Magazine Index at http://www.mjckeh.demon.co.uk
    "Beware of the Beautiful Stranger/Driving Through Mythical America"
       by Pete Atkin & Clive James, CD reissue 11/97 on See For Miles
   For more info on all PA/CJ releases, see http://www.rwt.co.uk/pa.htm

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 09:04:12 0
From: Mike Millen <email address>
Subject: MV665 Re: MV663; MV662; MV659; MV658; MV655; MV651; MV650: The Beautiful
 Changes

Hi everyone,

I'm taking a risk here as (1) I have only just joined the group
and (2) I <gulp> don't even know the song in question!

That said, let me try explaining the lines as quoted...

  >O.K. So Clive could have written:
  >The cloverleaf crossing now ties in a ring

Cloverleaf is an apt description of the "spaghetti junction"
type of motorway junction. "Ties" goes with the knot-like
appearance of the road layout. "Ring" is appropriate for the
outer slip roads which enclose all the land within their boundary.

  >The green-covered place that I went to in spring
  >With a notebook and what cigarettes I could bring...."

Motorway construction in Britain only started in the
late 50s/early 60s; All motorways were *new* developments, not
upgrading existing roads. Most likely the area was farmland before
the motorway was built.

  >But now we have the second verse which speaks of "the men
  >with a dream who are never refused"  who "drum up the exciting to
  >reap the unused". What does this mean and what does it have to do

The "men with a dream" are the politicians and planners who want to
build the motorways. "Drum up the exciting" may well be the way they
sell their ideas of new developments by extolling their advantages.
"To reap the unused" is what what the builders have done to the
formerly "green field" lands.

BTW, is there any news on Volume 4 of CJ's memoirs? (Or is that
off-topic here?)

Mike

Australia: Beautiful one day, perfect the next!

Net-Tamer V 1.10.1  - Registered

==============================================================================
From: Elphinking<email address>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:09:42 EST
Subject: MV666 Re: MV665; MV663; MV662; MV659; MV658; MV655; MV651; MV650: The 
 Beautiful Changes

This is just the bye the bye, but at one point under Birmingham's spaghetti
junction there is actually a bird sanctuary. I had no idea anything like that
could be there until I went with an RSPB mate a few years ago.

==============================================================================
From: NNorman<email address>
Subject: MV667: Pete goes karaoke (shock horror)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:03:58 -0000


Driving down the M6 yesterday morning at around 7.30 I lost patience 
with yet another Bill Clinton story on Radio 4 so I started station 
hopping. In my still sleepy state I settled on what appeared to be a 
familiar tune and without thinking started to sing along.
When I got to the bit where it says "cause I've a shortage of rhymes 
ending in an" I woke up.
First thought - someone's playing BOTBS, check radio - it's Radio 2 , 
this means Sarah Kennedy is playing BOTBS, Wow!
Second thought - I'm the only one singing, where's Pete Atkin, is this 
the Karaoke version?
Third thought -is this a special mix by Steve of the Monyash concert? 
Fourth and realisation, no it's an instrumental version of Honky Tonk 
Train Blues.
Finally, Sarah, for it was she, announces it as by Keith Emerson 
(nice, I hear some people pun), even that's a bit of a mindblower, 
Keith Emerson on Radio 2. Sadly, no PA though and soon we were into 
Wogan so back to station hopping.
Well, almost a great start to the day, perhaps one day it will be PA 
singing along with me!
Regards
Neil
----------
==============================================================================
From: Dave Jones <email address>
Subject: MV668 RE: MV667: Pete goes karaoke (shock horror)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:14:25 -0500

> From: NNorman<email address>
> To: midnight.voices<email address>
> Subject: Pete goes karaoke (shock horror)
> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:03:58 -0000
> 
> Fourth and realisation, no it's an instrumental version of Honky Tonk 
> Train Blues.
> Finally, Sarah, for it was she, announces it as by Keith Emerson 
> (nice, I hear some people pun), even that's a bit of a mindblower, 
> Keith Emerson on Radio 2.

Interesting.  Given that the OHTNTB's music is a fairly basic boogie
it's hard to see anyone wanting to just do the instrumental part.
There's not much of a tune in it.

I can't imagine Keith Emerson getting through it without throwing
in a few Bach quotes !  He does like boogie-woogie, though, and
has done plenty of boogie piano tracks in the past. Are you sure
you didn't just hear one that sounded like OHTNTB ?

Dave Jones
Beating 8 to the bar in Rochester NY.

==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:24:43 +0000
From: Leslie Moss <email address>
Subject: MV669: Max Roach

The 70-year old drummer had a concert reviewed a couple of days ago in the
Times. Apparently he is still in classic form - the review even mentioned
that he'd played with Bird and Diz in the old days.

He must still be wearing the wristwatch.

Leslie

==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:08:04 +0000
From: Edmund Chattoe <email address>
Subject: MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info)

Dear All,

Never thought I'd be able to add to the lit crit debates, but pop I can do.

There's a Keith Emerson single on Manticore Records (1976, K 13515)  that
features Honky Tonk Train Blues, credited to Meade Lex Lewis (Any help on
_that_ BTW.) That'll be what was on the radio, but I wonder if it's
subconscious borrowing by one or both. (I've had it my collection for ages
but never put 2 and 2 together before.) PA long predates KE, but maybe MLL
predates both ...

Should we be thinking about a CDR release of the rare Julie Covington album
and the two privately pressed ones? Does anyone have originals? Perhaps we
could even talk to "the man" about the latter. A strictly limited edition
prepaid by fans surely wouldn't get up any copyright holders nose? It might
be possible to do a full CD run. (With the best will in the world, I can't
see the JC album getting CD release, despite its huge price tag.)

I keep listening to the Live At Monyash CD and marvelling. I wish I'd been
there. I wish the seventh album had been released.

ATB,

Edmund

==============================================================================
From: "Murray Francis McGlew" <email address>
Subject: MV671 Re: MV630 - 7th album.  Magpie records.
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:23:02 +0800

Living outside the UK, I have never heard any of the songs before, but have
followed the discussion group with much interest.
The re-release of the two albums was my big chance, so casting aside my
fear of committing my Visa card number to the internet, I went to the
Magpie Records site and ordered a copy.
It arrived within a week (not bad from Twickenham to wheatbelt Western
Australia) , and even with air mail postage was still cheaper than the
average CD price out here.  Unqualified bouquets to Magpie - and of course
to your newsgroup and web site for making me aware of it.
After several playings the news is all good, I love some of the songs
already, and the others will no doubt grow on me, in the way these things
usually seem to happen. I will look forward eagerly to any future releases.

As for speculation about a name for the 7th album if it is ever released,
how about getting a heavy rock backing and calling it "Pete Atkin Plugged."

Murray McGlew

==============================================================================
From: IChippett<email address>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 03:47:35 EST
Subject: MV672: The Beautiful changes verses 2-4

If as has been suggested the "men with a dream" are the politicians who
inflict things like Spaghetti Junction on us, the it makes some kind of sense.
But what's that got to do with the lovers who are "judged and condemned
unaccused?" 

In the next verse, I think I can see what he's getting at but then he goes on
to say: "They pull into the kerb..." Who? "The loveliest creatures that God
ever made?" Why? And I don't think any astronaut has ever fallen towards Mars.
Is it just for the rhyme?

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:36:30 +0000
From: Leslie Moss <email address>
Subject: MV673 Re: MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info)

>Should we be thinking about a CDR release of the rare Julie Covington album
>and the two privately pressed ones? Does anyone have originals? Perhaps we
>could even talk to "the man" about the latter. A strictly limited edition
>prepaid by fans surely wouldn't get up any copyright holders nose? It might
>be possible to do a full CD run. (With the best will in the world, I can't
>see the JC album getting CD release, despite its huge price tag.)

I'll second that! I've got the JC album in good condition on vinyl and will
happily make it available for copying if the copyright issue is okay. I'd
love to have copies of the privately pressed ones.

BTW Does anyone know how to sample a WAV file from a CD? I'd like to  use
clips of the Monyash CD but can't work out how to record onto my hard drive
from the CD ROM drive (I've got an AWE32 sound card). Is this something that
comes built in to Windows 95 or does it require special software?

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:42:19 +0000
From: Roy Brown <email address>
Subject: MV674 Re: MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info)

In article <email address>,
Midnight Voices <email address> writes
>Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:08:04 +0000
>To: midnight.voices<email address>
>From: Edmund Chattoe <email address>
>Subject: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info)
>
>Dear All,
>
>Never thought I'd be able to add to the lit crit debates, but pop I can do.
>
>There's a Keith Emerson single on Manticore Records (1976, K 13515) that
>features Honky Tonk Train Blues, credited to Meade Lex Lewis (Any help on
>_that_ BTW.) That'll be what was on the radio, but I wonder if it's
>subconscious borrowing by one or both. (I've had it my collection for ages
>but never put 2 and 2 together before.) PA long predates KE, but maybe MLL
>predates both ...

Pete credits Meade Lux (sic) Lewis on the cover of BOTBS (the caravan
one at least - I never got the later upstart). So it's a *conscious*
borrowing.
>
>Should we be thinking about a CDR release of the rare Julie Covington album
>and the two privately pressed ones? Does anyone have originals?

I have a fanatically well-preserved JC BC, and I have 7.5ips dubs of  the
'private labels' done on BASF tape on a 4-track stereo Tandberg Model
64, not too long after they were released, on a decent record deck from
originals owned by another fastidious collector. And I still have the  64
to play it on.....

I keep trying to pluck up courage to play the tape and see what it
sounds like. Is 25 years of print-through worse than 25 years of snap
crackle pop? Is the oxide still attached?

> Perhaps we
>could even talk to "the man" about the latter. A strictly limited edition
>prepaid by fans surely wouldn't get up any copyright holders nose?

It would need to be authorised - I'm not up for bootlegs. My tape is
only because I couldn't get the privates for love nor money. (And, yes,
I tried both. The sacrifices....)

> It might
>be possible to do a full CD run. (With the best will in the world, I can't
>see the JC album getting CD release, despite its huge price tag.)

How huge? I have something worth money? And no, I'm not selling it -  I'd
just like the warm glow of knowing......
>
>I keep listening to the Live At Monyash CD and marvelling. I wish I'd been
>there. I wish the seventh album had been released.

Moi aussi.

-- 
Roy Brown               Phone : <phone number>    Fax : <fax number>
Affirm Ltd              Email : <email address>
                        'Have nothing on your systems that you do not    
<postal address>         know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful.' 

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 11:20:22 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV675 Re: MV657: Thank you Steve

Pete asks:

"Could Fran mean me!?  Did I tell you I had meant to say at Monyash that I
felt like Star Wars?  -  not widely seen in public for twenty odd years and
then when I do reappear I come with some extra stuff no one has seen before."

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 11:22:53 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV676 Re: MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info)

Pete answers:

"I'd always assumed everyone realised that Honky Tonk is musically an
amalgam.  I sort of thought the title itself (the double Original - which
no one's ever questioned) acknowledged that.  In introducing it live I've
often explained its genesis as an attempt to write a lyric to Meade Lux
Lewis's HTTB which foundered about halfway through the first 12bar chorus.
I carried on by borrowing other bits from it and several other train
blues-type tunes.  There's probably almost nothing in the music that's
wholly original, though I think everything is manipulated to the ends of my
lyric to some extent.   Perhaps the most identifiable musical quotation
(I'd have thought) is the "This is where the driver..." chorus which owes
most to Jimmy Forrest's Night Train, which was a sort of big band R&B hit
in the 40s and which I first heard in a version by the early Ventures  in
the very early 60s."

==============================================================================
From: Dave Fisher <email address>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:48:06 GMT
Subject: MV677 Re: MV674; MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info)

> Date:          Thu, 05 Feb 1998 11:26:34 +0000
> To:            "Midnight Voices":;
> From:          Midnight Voices <email address>
> Subject:       MV674 Re: MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info)
> 
> > It might
> >be possible to do a full CD run. (With the best will in the world, I can't
> >see the JC album getting CD release, despite its huge price tag.)
> 
> How huge? I have something worth money? And no, I'm not selling it - I'd
> just like the warm glow of knowing......
> >

I believe the JC album is listed as £100 for a mint condition copy 
in the latest Rare Record Catalogue. I have searched all sorts of 
weird outlets for it - no luck. I for one would relish a CD release.

Dave Fisher 

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:23:50 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton. Tel: <phone number>)
Subject: MV678: Sampling off the CD

Hi Leslie,

>> BTW Does anyone know how to sample a WAV file from a CD? I'd like to use
>> clips of the Monyash CD but can't work out how to record onto my hard drive
>> from the CD ROM drive (I've got an AWE32 sound card). Is this something that
>> comes built in to Windows 95 or does it require special software?

Well, speaking as a Windows 95 neophyte (and I'm still at the stage
where I think that It's Quite Good Really), I think it's built-in. 
There's an application called (I think) Sound Recorder which will  record
from a variety of sources (CD, microphone, MIDI) and store it as a file. 
Not sure about its format, but it can be re-played on a Windows 95
machine.  But maybe someone more digitally enabled than me (Steve?) can
give a more authoritative response?

Cheers,

Jeremy

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeremy Walton                                            <email address> |
| The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd, Oxford, UK       Tel: <phone number> |
|                                                      Fax:  <fax number>  |
| IRIS Explorer Center URL:          http://www.nag.co.uk/Welcome_IEC.html |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:24:01 +0000
From: David Gibson <email address>
Subject: MV679: new subscriber to list

In message "MV406: New Welcome Message", on Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Midnight
Voices <email address> writes

>If you're new to the group, you're hereby invited to introduce yourself!

I first heard Pete Atkin on the Radio 3 programme "Sounds interesting"
back in the mid 70s when I was at school. It was introduced, as I
recall, by Derek Jewell, music critic for the Sunday Times. I taped a
couple of tracks from Driving Through Mythical America, a couple from  an
album where he imitated the styles of other singers, and something
called, The Shadow and the Widower I think it was. (It was trailed for
Kaleidoscope (?) at 7.55am on R4 in 1977 I guess, cos I heard it as I
was on my way out to school!

That's all I had of his for years. By the time I could afford to buy
records, I couldnt find any in the shops!  Eventually found a second-
hand copy of Mythical America in a shop in Cambridge a few years ago.

Recently spotted Michael Cross's sig
> >    "Beware of the Beautiful Stranger/Driving Through Mythical America"
> >       by Pete Atkin & Clive James, CD reissue 11/97 on See For  Miles
> >   For more info on all PA/CJ releases, see http://www.rwt.co.uk/pa.htm

which is why Im here now. I know Im not the only person to have spotted
that - so Usenet advertising does work :-)

Enjoying reading all the postings - which go some way to answering many
of the questions I had about Pete Atkin & Clive James - like was it
*the* Clive James :-)

And the Web site is one of the best "fan" sites Ive ever seen - well
done!
-- 
David Gibson

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 20:18:04 +0000
From: Leslie Moss <email address>
Subject: MV680: CD sales

idle curiosity, but does anyone know how many copies of the BOBTS/DTMA CD
need to be sold to justify the release of further albums? And how many might
have been sold already? (if they're a handful short, perhaps we could club
together to make up the shortfall!).

Leslie

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 20:18:02 +0000
From: Leslie Moss <email address>
Subject: MV681 Re: MV671; MV630 - 7th album.  Magpie records.

At 07:52 05/02/98 +0000, you wrote:
>From: "Murray Francis McGlew" <email address>
>To: <midnight.voices<email address>>
>Subject: Re: MV630 - 7th album.  Magpie records.
>Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:23:02 +0800
>
>Living outside the UK, I have never heard any of the songs before, but have
>followed the discussion group with much interest.

I'm fascinated to find a Voice who joined up without having heard any of the
songs before. What drew you to PA and the website in the first place? Was it
the lyrics?

Leslie

==============================================================================
From: "andy & lynn" <email address>
Subject: MV682 Re: MV663; MV662; MV659; MV658; MV655; MV651; MV650: The 
 Beautiful Changes
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 01:38:38 -0000

No, there are six verses and two middle eights.  The song is like two songs
welded together (AABACCDC) with only the last few words acting as an overt
link.  Musically, its beautifully done.  Building and swelling with leaps
into the B,C and D sections and then dying away in the final elegaic C.
Lyrically there are themes and threads of romantic, if unsuccessful escape
from the awfulness of life.  For all its soaring, its ends like Steve
McQueen on a crashed motorcycle - resigned to its fate but better for the
experience.

An interesting parrallel is The Beatles' 'A Day in the Life'.  It   deals
with similar ideas, has a similar mood and is similar in construction.

For me, both are masterpieces.

National Steve

==============================================================================
From:	"Maurice J. Lovelock" <email address>
Date:	Thu, 5 Feb 1998 21:39:48 -5
Subject: MV683 Re: MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info)

According to the sleeve notes on ELP's "Works. Vol 2" album 
(yes,vinyl), "Honky Tonk Train Blues" is creditted to Meade (LUX) 
Lewis, Orchestrated by Alan Cohen and produced by Keith Emerson.  The 
album icludes other classics such as "Maple Leaf Rag" and 
"Barrelhouse Shake-down"  Ah, the memoroids.  MJL.

==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 07:55:37 -0500
From: Frances Kemmish <email address>
Subject: MV684 Re: MV675; MV657: Thank you Steve

> 
> Pete asks:
> 
> "Could Fran mean me!?  Did I tell you I had meant to say at Monyash that I
> felt like Star Wars?  -  not widely seen in public for twenty odd years and
> then when I do reappear I come with some extra stuff no one has seen before."
> 

I wasn't referring to individuals here, just observing a trend. (Does
that make it sound better, or worse?)

Anyway, I am reminded that when we lived in London, my husband used to
walk to work in the mornings, and often passed Clive James returning
from his morning jog. I wonder if he still runs in the mornings. It
didn't seem to have affected his overall fluffiness. (this is the term
used by my daughter's ballet teacher)

Fran

==============================================================================
From: Cary <email address>
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:58:39 +0000
Subject: MV685 Re: MV673; MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info)


> BTW Does anyone know how to sample a WAV file from a CD?

If I'm not mistaken Leslie you can use the sound recorder that comes 
with Win95 and select the CD as the recording source ... good luck.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~        
ROCK FOLLIES - The Classic 1970's TV Drama starring 
Julie Covington, Charlotte Cornwell and Rula Lenska. 
Online at:-  http://members.xoom.com/Follies
Pictures,sounds and much more (unofficial site)
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regards - Cary (like Mary with a 'C' for cat)

==============================================================================
From: IChippett<email address>
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:01:17 EST
Subject: MV686: Session notes

How much unrecorded stuff exists? From the session notes from AKAN it would
seem that Pete only recorded the songs we have on disc. Is the true for all
the other albums? Was it because he knew for sure exactly what he wanted on
his albums beforehand or was the budget too tight? I'd like to think that one
day we'll see all the albums in C.D. form with "previously unreleased
material" on them. 

==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 22:26:27 +0000
From: Alexis Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV687 Re: MV678: Sampling off the CD

Or his son! <GRIN>.  Yes, this is my first posting to the MV group, despite 
having lurked (and diligently filed the messages away) since the beginning of 
the group. I must say that Pete's music does not inspire me as much is it does 
for you 'oldies', although I do enjoy the live performances he does.

Anyway, as you may have discovered, the Windows 95 (and NT) sound recorder 
suffers from the problem of memory (or lack of it).  You will find it difficult 
to record samples longer than 30 or 60 seconds long (depending on how much 
memory you have).  This causes obvious problems when recording CD tracks.

The easiest way of getting around this is to download specialised recording
software, such as Cool Edit 96 (from http://www.syntrillium.com/) or Goldwave
(from http://www.goldwave.com/).  Having used both, I can say that Cool Edit is
both easier to use and a lot more powerful, so I would recommend this.

Another consideration is whether you have a CD Audio cable connecting your CD 
ROM drive to your sound card.  This allows you to directly record audio from 
the CD drive.  To find this out, you can open the computer and see if there is 
a thin cable going from the back of your CD drive to your sound card, or you 
can try recording and see if you get any sound (which is quicker and easier!)

If you don't get any sound output, you will need a 3.5" jack to 3.5" jack to go
from the headphone output of your CD drive to the line in of your AWE 32 (or
equivalent sound card).

To record the sound (and I'm using Cool Edit to do this), load up the program,
create a new file with whatever settings you require (16 bit, stereo, 44.1Khz 
is CD quality, but you may want to set it lower to conserve disk space).  Then 
open the CD player built into Cool Edit, press record on your new WAV file, and 
press the track number on the cd player.  This will then record the sound.

I take it that saving the file etc. is within your capabilities!  Be warned 
that recording CD quality sound takes a lot of disk space (60-90MB for a 3-4 
minute file), so make sure you have plenty free or you will get errors.

If you would like any more help, please do not hesitate to contact me via the
group or personally on <email address>.

Hope this helps,

Alexis Birkill <email address>
http://www.dragonfire.net/~Alexis/

> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:23:50 GMT
> From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton. <phone number>)
> To: midnight.voices<email address>
> Subject: Sampling off the CD
>
> Hi Leslie,
>
> >> BTW Does anyone know how to sample a WAV file from a CD? I'd like to use
> >> clips of the Monyash CD but can't work out how to record onto my hard drive
> >> from the CD ROM drive (I've got an AWE32 sound card). Is this something
> that
> >> comes built in to Windows 95 or does it require special software?
>
> Well, speaking as a Windows 95 neophyte (and I'm still at the stage
> where I think that It's Quite Good Really), I think it's built-in.
> There's an application called (I think) Sound Recorder which will record
> from a variety of sources (CD, microphone, MIDI) and store it as a file.
> Not sure about its format, but it can be re-played on a Windows 95
> machine.  But maybe someone more digitally enabled than me (Steve?) can
> give a more authoritative response?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeremy

==============================================================================
From: IChippett<email address>
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 01:32:41 EST
Subject: MV688 Re : MV682 Beware of the beautiful Changes!

Are we talking about the same song? I can't hear any middle eights or the
structure you do. It's AAAAAAA then a key change and AA1 as far as I can make
out.(Not that I'm always faultless in my judgements in these matters). Of
course, I only know the PA version. As for your interpretation, well, maybe
your'e right but I still can't make much sense out of the various images which
don't cohere. 
Still, I'll go and play it through again before bed just to make sure.

==============================================================================
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:47:46 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV689 Re: (various)

MV671 Re: MV630 - 7th album.  Magpie records.

Thanks Murray for alerting us to the operational status of Magpie's Website:
	http://www.magpiedirect.com
-- like SFM's it's been promised for such a long time I'd given up checking 
for changes. I'll add a link from our Website direct to their Pete Atkin page:
	http://www.magpiedirect.com/md/product.asp?sku=C5HCD+664
despite the procrustean treatment of the title and the perpetuation of that 
"bird". I see they're looking for customer comments too on that page ...
But -- just got my third monthly copy of their catalogue, and no PA listing.
Don't think of Pete just as an acoustic artist though -- listen to his 
electric single version of "I See The Joker" on the Website:
	http://www.rwtltd.demon.co.uk/joker.ram 
or via
 	http://www.rwt.co.uk/audio.htm


MV673 Re: MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info) [Leslie Moss]
MV674 Re: MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info) [Roy Brown]

Nice to know we have among our number near-mint copies of these albums. The 
master for "The Beautiful Changes" should be in EMI's vaults somewhere, but 
even master tapes begin to shed their oxide after 30 years (or less, if badly 
stored). The masters of TPMO and WTML I believe have long since been lost. I 
for one have been involved intermittently for some months in cleaning up my 
digitised versions of the latter pair, very generously loaned for copying by 
fellow voices. However carefully looked after, the old vinyl seems to develop 
a mass of crackles and pops over time, which can be repaired digitally but 
it's a tedious job to do without introducing other artefacts (see next-but-
one story). At least they can be removed, which isn't the case with the 
distortion and modulation noise of groove plasticity resulting from normal 
wear, which of course most of our Atkin originals will be suffering from. It 
sounds (Roy) as though your Tandberg tapes would be the best starting point 
if we seriously needed to remaster the private label issues.

However I don't think we can support a bootleg issue. EMI should be tackled 
in the first instance about a reissue of Julie's album. It they're not 
interested then we should approach See For Miles or one of the other reissue 
specialists. The private albums were produced as a limited edition souvenir/
demo enterprise, and Pete has suggested perhaps they should stay that way.


MV677 Re: MV674; MV670: Pete Goes Karaoke (More Info) [Dave Fisher]

I paid £120 for an allegedly mint copy (ex BFBS radio, Germany) a couple of 
years ago. A mass of crackles and pops! My own worn version is better!!


MV687 Re: MV678: Sampling off the CD [Alexis Birkill]

Thanks Tigs for the clear exposition -- I hadn't realised that Sound Recorder 
memory limitation either.

Just a word or two to add about digital extraction. The process Alexis 
describes, which is by far the simplest way to do it, involves digital-to-
analogue conversion in the CD-ROM drive, and analogue-to-digital again in 
the sound card. If you need to preserve the signal in the digital domain (to 
make a perfect CD-R copy, for instance) it's much harder. You need a drive 
which supports digital audio (CDDA) extraction, which until recently meant a 
SCSI rather than an IDE or ATAPI drive. And, because of the way CDDA 
recording differs from data, you need software which performs buffering and 
jitter-correction, or you get glitches in the audio every few seconds. A 
very good suite of programs to do this is available (the complete Windows 
version is called CDRWIN) and shareware versions can be downloaded, from 
Golden Hawk Software at:
	http://www.goldenhawk.com/
This software also allows you to burn Red-book compliant CD-Rs in 'disc at 
once' mode, giving full control over cue points and pre-gaps, which is how I 
was able to create the Festival CDs without silences between tracks.

Then again if you need to input digital audio from an external source, a DAT 
recorder (which I've also used as an intermediate step with analogue sources, 
e.g. Revox, for the old sessions, or VCR), MPEG receiver, DVD or MD drive for 
instance, you need a digital input card for your PC. This accepts data in 
industry-standard AES/EBU or S/PDIF electrical or optical formats, at 32, 
44.1 or 48 kHz sampling rates and saves it to hard disc as a stereo .WAV file. 
The Festival CD material was copied from DAT sources this way, edited and 
processed in Cool Edit Pro and burnt to CD-R in a 4x-speed Yamaha drive. CD-R, 
even CD-Rewritable drives can now be had for less than £300, and the blank 
media cost is falling daily.

Cool Edit Pro also includes powerful editing features, including a battery of 
multitrack mixing, equalisation, compression and expansion options (including 
the dreaded noise gate, the generic reason you can't tell what's being said 
when those old movies are shown on TV -- instead of intelligibility with hiss, 
as we used to get, today's operators have such a dislike of hiss that they 
process it out, along with most of the ambience and the quiet passages on the 
soundtrack, leaving your ears with what sounds like a bad case of crossover 
distortion).

And it also has a click eliminator for old vinyl! This is smart enough to 
recognise a click from its spectral signature, delete it and interpolate 
across the gap, restoring almost the original audio. Unfortunately it's not 
as intelligent as the human ear (no software is), and it makes a few mistakes, 
which are audible. Set it off on auto, with a highly-impaired track, and it 
takes out the odd snare-drum transient, and leaves a bubbly background where 
clicks and pops were most dense. So I find myself going through each track 
manually, identifying start and end of each click, tailoring the correction 
profile and mending it. And the closer you look the more muck you find -- a 
big pop every 2 or 3 seconds but a background of ticks amounting to several 
tens per second of music. At times even I am tempted to say "life's too short" ...

Interestingly, Pete uses for his radio production work a professional system 
called SADiE, which has similar features to Cool Edit Pro but comes with its 
own processor and interface cards (so it's much faster) and runs on a 
dedicated PC.


MV455: Monyash Festival recordings now available [and Roy Brown, private msg.]

I'm still getting 2 or 3 queries per week from MV members who have joined 
since we announced the availability of Festival recordings, or for some other 
reason haven't yet ordered, so I guess I should summarise and update everyone 
here.

The recordings are still available. We are making the CDs ahead of order so 
they're always in stock -- we haven't yet set a cutoff date or quantity. The 
videos are running low, with 10 PAL and 5 NTSC (North American system) copies 
remaining.

The 2-CD set costs £16.99
The video (VHS videocassette in PAL or NTSC) costs £12.99

Quoted prices include packing and inland first class post, EC air mail or 
rest-of-the-world surface mail. There is no VAT to pay. For Air Mail delivery 
outside the European community please add £1.50 per consignment.

Orders should be sent by post to <postal address>.
Cheques should be made payable to "Monyash Festival". Foreign currency checks 
cannot be accepted. If you haven't a UK bank account you should either (i) get 
your bank to issue a foreign draft (Sterling draft), which is effectively a 
check drawn by them on a UK bank, for the appropriate amount, and send that to 
us, or (ii) take advantage of Midnight Voice Richard Ross's generous offer to 
handle overseas (outside the EC only) credit card orders for us. He writes 
"If people (overseas *only* please) want to phone, fax or email their credit 
card (Visa/Mastercard only) info, together with cardholder's name and billing 
address to me, I'll clear the funds and pass them on to Monyash Festival.

	Phone (office hours) <phone number>
	Fax <fax number>
	e-mail: <email address>"

A track listing of the CDs can be found on our Website at:
	http://www.rwt.co.uk/padiscog.htm#monyash
-- click on the cover image for a high-res view. And if you've got some kind 
of photo-quality printer you might like to download gifs of the two cover 
photos at:
	http://www.dragonfire.net/~sbirkill/cd1frpic.gif
	http://www.dragonfire.net/~sbirkill/cd2frpic.gif

These recordings are available as a souvenir only to Midnight Voices members 
or patrons of the Monyash Festival. All proceeds from the sales go to the 
Monyash Church Restoration Fund.


MV660: Gig List

As well as the published list of dates and venues, Pete has kept setlists for 
most of the gigs. We kinda judged that not even MVs would demand that kind of 
minutiae at this distance, so the lists will not go up on the site, unless 
someone pleads a convincing case. But if anyone needs a specific, Pete will 
be happy to furnish it. We're also working on more session diaries, including 
the BBC sessions and some background on the WAYDATS and TPMO TV shows.


MV663 Re : MV662; MV659; MV658; MV655; MV651; MV650: The Beautiful Changes 
[Ian C]

Pete disputes 'abstruse': 
"'Cloverleaf crossing', appropriate and poetic as it is as a description, is
not Clive's invention, it's right there in the language - see Chambers
Dictionary (and probably others)"

-- Steve 

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