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From: PayneS <email address>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:07:33 +0000
Subject: MV363: Magpie Typos
At Winchester, Pete introduced "Dreams of fair women" as a politically
incorrect song. I wonder how he'd feel about "Have you got a bird I can
borrow." (Thinks: perhaps the answer is yes, the one I met before the
one I'm with now.)
Stephen Payne
==============================================================================
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:16:35 GMT
From: <email address> (Michael J. Cross)
Subject: MV364: On and on and on ...
Hi All,
Many thanks to Steve & Pete for MV362.
My CD arrived this morning, but I wasn't able to listen to it until
this afternoon.
It was great to listen to a 'fresh' copy after listening to the old
LP's for so many years.
Unfortunately I seem to have a damaged/mispressed CD; this manifests
as skips and repeats during the first 25 seconds or so of 'Practical
Man'. If I forward past the first 30 seconds it then plays OK for the
rest of the track.
There's what looks like a scratch towards the outer edge which
might be the cause if the later tracks are on the outside?
This is the first time I've seen this problem with a CD. I understand
that there are 'CD Repair' kits around, does anyone have experience of
these? Or should I just send it back to Magpie(?) for a replacement?
all the best,
--
Michael J. Cross BSFA Magazine Index at http://www.mjckeh.demon.co.uk
"Beware of the Beautiful Stranger/Driving Through Mythical America"
by Pete Atkin & Clive James, CD reissue 11/97 on See For Miles
For more info on all PA/CJ releases, see http://www.rwt.co.uk/pa.htm
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:47:10 -0500 (EST)
From: RGIBSON<email address>
Subject: MV365 Re: MV364: On and on and on ...
Regarding the CD quality. Try it on other players if possible. I have found
that different players tolerate different levels of physical integrity. You
may find the skips disappear, a situation which makes the CD difficult to
return, but which, I believe makes it a candidate for "repair".
Regards
Richard Gibson
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:43:37 -0500 (EST)
From: IChippett<email address>
Subject: MV366: Sales figures
IDoes anybody know exactly how many copies of each album Pete sold? It might
be interesting to know which of them met with the most commercial success ("A
King at Nightfall"?) and which with the least (" Beware of the Beautiful
Stranger"?) and to see how these figures compare with one's own favourite Top
6. It was Pete's message to Steve in this week's digest which made me wonder.
I don't think we should worry if Pete stumbles over the words of his songs
now and then. I once saw Procol Harum's singer Gary Brooker forget the words
of "Homburg" which he must have sung a million times. The thing is, we all
know them by heart but I doubt if Pete whistles them while waiting for the
bus in the morning. Plus there are an awful lot of words to remember!
Can we have some more of the brilliant parodies printed in the latest copies
of the Digest, please?
What are the 7 cities referred to in "Eye of the Universe"? And does he sing
"I've crossed THE Atlas with the Golden Horde" or, what I seem to hear and
which makes no sense, "I've crossed AN Atlas with the Golden Horde"? What do
you get if you cross an Atlas with the Golden Horde?
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 20:46:07 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV367 Re: MV366: Sales figures
Ian,
Seven Cities of Cibola: I believe this refers to the conquistadors' legend
of fabulously wealthy native cities in what is now New Mexico. After the
Aztec and Inca nations the Spanish were eager for new conquests and
treasures. Cabeza de Vaco related tales of Cíbola and in about 1540
Francisco Vasquez de Coronado led an expedition to find the cities of gold,
but found only poor pueblo villages. The area, west of Albuquerque and the
Rio Grande, is now known as the Cibola National Forest and includes several
indian reservations. A recent theory links the ruins of Aztec National
Monument, in the north-west of the state, with the architecturally striking
pueblo village of Chaco Canyon some 60 miles to the south and the pueblo of
Casas Grandes way down in Mexico. All three sites lie within 1km of the 107
deg 57 min meridian of longitude, which passes through Cíbola and is
believed to have had special significance.
Didn't the narrator simply cover a large area of the earth's surface (cross
an atlas) with Batu Khan's gang? That's my humble interpretation.
Steve
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 18:51:02 -0500
From: Frances Kemmish <email address>
Subject: MV368 Re: MV366: Sales figures
Midnight Voices wrote:
>
> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:43:37 -0500 (EST)
> From: IChippett<email address>
What do
> you get if you cross an Atlas with the Golden Horde?
>
Probably a Golden GLobe Award. Or else a Golden Seaswallow of Knokke.
Fran
(waiting with bated breath for the CD to cross the Atlantic)
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:19:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Elphinking<email address>
Subject: MV369 Re: MV366: Sales figures
Purely incidentally, Gary Brooker lives down the road from me (my daughter
pipped him for the best single-stemmed daffodil in the Dunsfold Horticultural
Society's spring show a couple of years ago) and he regularly performs in a
couple of the village halls with the likes of Mike Rutherford, Eric Clapton
and other local cronies.
As for crossing the Atlas, I always assumed he meant the Atlas mountains.
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:32:47 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV370 Re: MV366: Sales figures
Or ...
>
>What do you get if you cross an Atlas with the Golden Horde?
>
A treasure map?
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:05:51 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
Subject: MV371 Re: MV361: The See For Miles CD
>> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 05:15:45 -0500
>> From: Tony Currie <email address>
>> Subject: The See For Miles CD
>> To: "midnight.voices" <email address>
Hi Tony,
>> 6.The highs and lows of BOTBS:
>> -arrangements such as Frangipanni
>> -words such as Aorta, which I'd never heard before,
>> haven't heard since and still haven't looked up
The aorta is (I think) one of the main arteries attached to the heart.
It is, of course, featured in "The original Original Honky Tonk Night
Train Blues".
>> -Biro, where PA overreaches himself and strains to get the
>> power the song cries for
Thanks for the unfortunate reminder. I think this is my least favourite
PA song, possibly even one of my least favourite songs ever (but only
because of the flaw it represents in an otherwise high standard of
work). I think the words are fine, but the singing and arrangement
always sound so clumsy to me (I always associate "tie the brush into my
hands" with the notion that the (too loud) bassist and drummer sound
like they have their hands tied together). Hopefully, it sounds better
live.
Cheers,
Jeremy
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:26:56 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
Subject: MV372 Re: MV348: No Dice: another throw
>> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:47:50 -0800
>> From: m.powell<email address>
>> To: midnight voices <email address>
>> Subject: No Dice: another throw
Additional kudos for your excellent interpretation here, Mel - it
appears right on the button (which, in the absence of an objective
explanation, is just as valuable as having one of the authors appear in
here to tell us what it is "really" about).
>> What I'd welcome now are some ideas about the identities/cultures of the
>> characters in verses 1-4. My guesses so far are:
>>
>> 1, Aged Eskimo - fairly sure
Hmmm - until you made this suggestion, I'd always thought he was an
arctic explorer being left behind by his companions. Of course, it
could be an eskimo, but I'd formed the impression (without any good
reason that I can think of) that he was dying a long way from home - but
then again, maybe that's what happens to old eskimos as well.
Interesting.
>> 2. 20th c. military - a marine craft landing on a Pacific island
I thought this as well. I think the imagery on this verse is
particularly fine - the shrubberies of hail, the trees of shellburst
that hump and blow. But what's an LVT? Anyone know?
>> 3. A conquistadors expedition gone wrong - like Aguirre, Wrath of God?
The death here is more elliptical - "we'd never live to tell the story"
- but I guess it still fits into the interpretation. We've already
established what a water-stair is, but I've never been sure why they're
throwing the gold away. Suppression of the old religion? Defiance?
Despair?
>> 4. 20th c. wartime execution - which could be any time in any country.
I always thought of this as being a scene from Vietnam. The idea of
getting your prisoners to dig their own grave (to save you the effort)
is a haunting one; in some of their concentration camps, the Nazis
apparently used to determine when your time of execution had arrived by
calculating (quite precisely) the balance between the amount of food you
required and the amount of work you could produce. The former included
the energy required to incinerate your body; the latter included the
useful chemicals that could be extracted from your remains.
Regarding Stephen Payne's comments (MV351): I'd agree that labelling it
as a "love song" is peculiar - unless it's supposed to be a love song
for the whole of humanity (bit of a strain, I'd've thought). The
chronological progression I can live without - I think mixing up the
times just makes you think a bit harder if you're interested in this
sort of thing. A similar remark would apply to the abrupt time and
context shift that takes place in the middle of "Canoe". And yes, I
think you're absolutely correct about the dice -> multiple die (deaths)
connection, but I think this is secondary to the way it's used in the
song: when the soldier says "No dice -- there was nothing left to
throw", it always sounds like the stark realisation (and stoic
acceptance) of the inescapable fact that there's no way out, this is the
end of the line.
Cheers,
Jeremy
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:03:12 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
Subject: MV373 Re: MV344; MV340; MV338: Nat or Natash?
>> From: Mark Roberts <email address>
>> To: 'Midnight Voices' <email address>
>> Subject: RE: MV340 Re: MV338: Nat or Natash?
>> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:45:31 -0000
>>
>> Surely it's Natasha from Tolstoy's War and Peace who's being referred to?
Yes, I'm sure it is. Other Natashas (Kinksi probably wasn't even born
when the song was written!) need not apply. And spare us the image of
a footballer who was in love with his ball(s).
Seriously, the line was one of the reasons I finally decided to read
"War and Peace" last year. And yes, she really did love the ball, in a
beautiful and touching way. Check it out, as they say.
Cheers,
Jeremy
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:10:07 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
Subject: MV374 Re: MV343; MV336; MV329: Uncle Seabird
>> From: Mark Roberts <email address>
>> To: 'Midnight Voices' <email address>
>> Subject: RE: MV336 Re: MV329: Uncle Seabird
>> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:42:04 -0000
>> Here's a guess - I think the word is actually 'Weatherman', in
>> reference to Subterranean Homesick Blues. ("You don't need a Weatherman
>> to know which way the wind blows": the Weathermen were a contemporary
>> anarchist group.)
That's correct. As has already been pointed out, they took their name
from the lyric, not the other way round.
>> I thought the Wethermen were the backing group that played with Dylan
>> but I could be wrong.
No - they were The Band (formerly called The Hawks, from when they
backed Ronnie Hawkins).
Cheers,
Jeremy
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:14:02 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
Subject: MV375 Re: MV334; MV316; MV310: quick trip to the bank
>> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 20:28:03 +0100
>> From: David Griffin <email address>
>> To: Midnight Voices <email address>
>> Subject: Re: MV316 Re: MV310: quick trip to the bank
>>
>> And I'd always heard it as "The beginner's chord and the very last chord
>> of all." and thought it was an advanced pun about chords (The beginner's
>> chord being the easy one and the very last chord of all being the most
>> difficult one). I've obviously been influenced by Moody Blues "In Search
>> of theLOST chord", but then again I'm a master at mishearing.
Yes - I always heard it as this as well, for exactly the same reasons as
you. I remember thinking it a great idea (being a guitarist myself) and
being disappointed when I realised it was something else which, as I
thought at the time, was an inferior image. However, I've since been
somewhat mollified by the alternative interpretation.
Cheers,
Jeremy
==============================================================================
From: cboag<email address>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 14:38:29 +0000
Subject: MV376: some harmless observations..
Business commitments have stopped me making some comments about
the recent Winchester gig and since I organised it I thought I
should.
1. When, like many of us, I commented upon my favourite PA/CJ songs
it never crossed my mind that Pete would take note. Imagine my
surprise and delight to find that he deliberately included them in
his set in Winchester. I thanked him on the evening but publicly
do so again.
2. I too was disappointed by the turn-out at Winchester. Many of our
younger regulars gave it a miss because my enthusiasm had made them
believe it was going to be a seventies throwback evening! Those that
did attend didn't enjoy it as much as I had hoped. An uncomfortable
thought for you to consider...I think that the 'cleverness' of the
lyrics and the arrangements (which is what I love) simply sails past
most people. A good friend used the word 'pseudy' about them! I
refrained from putting an axe through her head (which was my initial
thought) and pondered whether this isn't a lost cause. Perhaps there
weren't ever (and aren't now) enough people of the right disposition
to make the music truly popular.
3. Rob mentioned the 'attempted scene stealer'
a) he's probably a 'Voice' so be careful!
b) he's a semi-pro musician who always brings an audience with him
when we book him - usually about 25 extra punters (I've no doubt who
I would rather listen to but from a financial point of view I need to
book popular acts)
Finally, thanks to those of you who came along - my wife and I
thoroughly enjoyed the evening - booking your 'heroes' is a great
thrill and I've now done that with PA, John Otway and Les Barker. I
wonder if Hue and Cry would like to play Winchester...?
Best wishes
Colin
Boag------------------------------------------------------------
==============================================================================
From: Mark Roberts <email address>
Subject: MV377 RE: MV372; MV348: No Dice: another throw
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:03:33 -0000
----------
>> 3. A conquistador_s expedition gone wrong - like Aguirre, Wrath of God?
The death here is more elliptical - "we'd never live to tell the story"
- but I guess it still fits into the interpretation. We've already
established what a water-stair is, but I've never been sure why they're
throwing the gold away. Suppression of the old religion? Defiance?
Despair?
I thought it might be the Aztecs hiding the gold from the
conquistadors. Also I seem to remember a story some years ago about
looted Nazi gold hidden in a Swiss lake, I think that could fit.
Regards,
Mark Roberts.
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:15:37 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV378 RE: MV372; MV348: No Dice: another throw
>> 3. A conquistadors expedition gone wrong - like Aguirre, Wrath of God?
>The death here is more elliptical - "we'd never live to tell the story"
>- but I guess it still fits into the interpretation. We've already
>established what a water-stair is, but I've never been sure why they're
>throwing the gold away. Suppression of the old religion? Defiance?
>Despair?
Tangential image dept. : The "water-stair" is (or was) the main mode of entrance
to the Tower of London, from which many a doomed soul never returned.
Can't help feeling that was lurking somewhere in Clive's id when he wrote those
words. Or else he had a Tower verse in a draft but ditched it, retaining the 'water
stair' phrase to help another verse scan.
Dave J.
Have hourly rate - will program.
Software Hired Gun in Rochester, NY.
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:27:27 -0500
From: Tony Currie <email address>
Subject: MV379 Re: MV372; MV348: No Dice: another throw
Message text written by Midnight Voices
> But what's an LVT? Anyone know?<
An LVT is a Landing Vehicle - Tanks, typical WW2 military acronym.
Apropos about nothing, but remembering someone's earlier thought that the
"faded mansion" could be at Salcombe (Devon), just around the corner was
Slapton Sands, which was where a US exercise for DDay landings went
horribly wrong and a number of LVT's were caught defenceless on a moonlit
night. Much loss of life, only recently reported. My sister lived there for
a couple of years so I read about it. Interesting story of a typical
military bungle.
Whoever mentioned a restored barn at Walton, as a possible venue for PA,
Yes please (I live in Esher).
Tony
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:32:53 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV380 Re: MV366: Sales figures; MV371
>
>IDoes anybody know exactly how many copies of each album Pete sold? It might
>be interesting to know which of them met with the most commercial success ("A
>King at Nightfall"?) and which with the least (" Beware of the Beautiful
>Stranger"?) and to see how these figures compare with one's own favourite Top
>6. It was Pete's message to Steve in this week's digest which made me wonder.
>
Hi Ian -
Pete's approximate recollection of his 1977-ish calculations, in descending
order. These deduced generally from royalties, more reliable than record
company sales figures (layout assumes monospaced font) :
BOTBS (Fontana plus RCA) : 13 to 14000
AKAN : (almost as many)
TROS : (fewer)
LL : (fewer again)
SD : 11 to 12000
DTMA (mostly RCA) : about 9000
MOTR : (couldn't have been many)
THAM : about 2000
Julie's album The Beautiful Changes, worked out the same way, indicates
total sales of perhaps 300. This helps explain its collector's value of
£100-ish+
Perhaps the MVs' next task should be to lobby EMI for a re-issue of that
album, containing as it does some great early Atkin/James songs. There are
some other numbers in the can that would be a good choice for bonus tracks
on the CD.
And concerning EMI, y'all join in and hassle HMV to carry the SFM album --
as of today it's not even listed on their computer database.
Re MV371, "tie the brush into my hands" was Renoir at the end of his life,
crippled with arthritis.
Re the aorta (staying with matters medical), did anyone see Robbie Coltrane
on C4 last night (Sunday) describing the workings of a steam locomotive in
some detail? The incidental music missed a great opportunity. They played
some frantic 'dance music' I think.
-- Steve
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:49:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Elphinking<email address>
Subject: MV381 Re: MV376: some harmless observations..
Interesting, that 'pseudy' reaction...my partner, a decade younger and female
(so well out of the profile of one's average PA fan) remarked that he had
obviously been quite angry when he wrote the songs in the past and now seemed
a little sheepish at having to revive that ancient emotion.
It is not an interpretation that I could take on board; when I reminded her
that Clive James penned the lyrics, she remained adamant, and I was
disappointed that she did not instantly fall in love with the songs that
dominate large chunks of my travels on the car stereo.
However, there is a weight to Pete's music that does not sit easily with
today's generation and there are times - particularly when some Voices seem
eagerly contending for entries in Private Eye's Pseuds Corner - that I wonder
if we are not overburdening him with our own sentiment.
Talking of booking one's heroes, Colin, any chance of Jake Thack or Roy
Harper?
Rob
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:32:38 -0500
From: John Ramsey <email address>
Subject: MV382: Holy gold and water stairs.
Of all the verses in "No dice", I'm still not sure I understand the bit
about the Holy Gold and the Water Stair. We had a brief discussion a few
weeks back, and I wasn't sure I agreed with "water stair" being the same as
"pilot ladder". Anyone got any new ideas?
John.
==============================================================================
From: Benjamin.Peterson<email address>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 15:32:57 +0000
Subject: MV383 Re: MV372; MV348: No Dice: another throw
[headers, identity of previous posters etc destroyed by my idiot mail
program :( ]
>But what's an LVT? Anyone know?
'Landing Vehicle (Tanks)' -- WW2 British terminology, I forget whether
the Americans called theirs the same thing. It's a very American
scenario, though; I've certainly always pictured freckled,
all-american kids charging up the beach into the waiting machine guns
of the Yellow Menace.
>>> 3. A conquistadors expedition gone wrong - like Aguirre, Wrath of God?
>The death here is more elliptical - "we'd never live to tell the
>story" - but I guess it still fits into the interpretation. We've
>already established what a water-stair is, but I've never been sure
>why they're throwing the gold away. Suppression of the old religion?
>Defiance? Despair?
This one is a total mystery. I note in passing, however, that:
1 -- Why would you have a water-stair at 'the last deep lake before the
snow'? You'd normally expect conquistadors to be hauling gold on board
ship at the coast.
2 -- The mayans had sacrifical wells into which they used to throw gold
and themselves. Could this be the theme of the song? This'd explain
the 'holy'-ness of the gold, and also perhaps the presence of a priest
and the belief that glory awaits those who drown.
And my entries on the 'well-worn phrase' list would be:
'there's a slight but considerable danger'
'grimly chasing shorts with halves of bitter'
'a surer way to navigate at night'
Benjamin
==============================================================================
Subject: MV384 Re: MV382: Holy gold and water stairs.
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:09:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: Edmund Chattoe <email address>
Dear All,
I always had visions of a fleeing band of ragged conquistadors,
pursued by the enraged indians and heading into the mountains, finally
giving up their gold to lighten their load and realising that they
would never live to tell the story.
ATB,
Edmund
PS Another proud owner of the twofer CD. I wonder how many copies SFM
have to sell before they will consider doing the others :) Tower
Records in Picadilly Circus actually has copies "on the shelf" unlike
most other stores.
==============================================================================
From: Cary <email address>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:56:33 +0000
Subject: MV385: See fo Miles
Well, here I am, still waiting for my CD from See For Miles. I've
checked, they assure me it's on it's way. Mind you, a slight spelling
error meant they had to search for me ... I had changes from Bernard
to Dernard. It struck me applying the same logic to our main man,
Steve, he would become Dirkill. A short step to Dirk Hill which
sounds to me like a great name for a character in "Joker". 'I see the
Joker' does involve gangsters doesn't it ? After some very
enlightening posts after my question about No Dice ( thank you all )
I found myself singing it with much more conviction. Anyone like to
give me food for thought on "Joker" ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_/\ /\_
Cary a a
Like Mary @
With a 'C' for cat
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(should show a cat - if not ...
picasso eat your heart out!!)
==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:43:47 -0500
From: Pete Smith <email address>
Subject: MV386 Re: MV384; MV382: Holy gold and water stairs.
".....a fleeing band of ragged conquistadors,
pursued by the enraged indians and heading into the mountains, finally
giving up their gold to lighten their load...."
Surely the other way about. The guys with the gold were the indians, taking
it up into the mountains to dump it in a lake so the invaders couldn't have
it, then making sure nobody lived to tell the tale.
Pete Smith
==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:50:15 -0500
From: Pete Smith <email address>
Subject: MV387 Re: MV322; MV310: quick trip to the bank
>The beginner's call - a baby's first cry?
>
>The very last call of all - surely that of the Grim Reaper
Right on the second one, but surely the first refers to the moment when a
guitarist first felt the "call " to take up the instrument. It's a VERY
long time since I started playing but I can still remember how it took
over my life.
Pete Smith
==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:05:47 -0800
From: m.powell<email address>
Subject: MV388: Duplicates et al
First para to Steve really
On the subject of duplicates once more - MV378,379,380 arrived twice
each today. As I noted before at this level it does not really matter
but I hope it does not develop into a multiple posting problem which is
more serious.
Dr Mel says thank you for the PhD - she will gladly accept the Atkin
Chair of Pseuding at the University of Neasden as soon as Clive admits
to the TS Eliot influences. More intensive efforts on other songs will
arrive shortly (inc. Faded Mansion).
I fully support her interpretations by the way - as well as her advice
to those who have not already done so to have a look at (esp.) Eliot's
poems. The realisation of just how ingenious Clive's references are
adds another, perfectly legitimate, source of pleasure to the songs.
Although of course the songs will have to be able to stand up without
this additional layer of appreciation since there is no doubt that not
many listeners would easily pick it up unaided (including me).
Mike Powell
==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:33:45 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV389: Eliot again: Shadow and the Widower
Further to MV362: 'On Kings, Princes and Dice', and on rereading 'Little
Gidding', fourth of the 'Four Quartets': I'm seeing Shadow and the Widower
in II, the chilling meeting in the 'dead patrol' passage. CJ clinches it by
handing us that old 'refining fire' (while throwing in those other
evocative phrases from Blake, Hamlet, de Nerval and no doubt other sources
I don't recognise).
Re LVT: MV383 and earlier: The US 'LVT' is 'Landing Vehicle, Tracked', as
used in the Pacific landings (hence the coral reef) in WWII, see
http://www.dot.gov/dotinfo/uscg/hq/g-cp/history/h_pacwar.html
While researching some months back for the 'No Dice' annotated lyric (yet
to appear) I came across another site with photos of the different versions
of LVT and their histories, including the number deployed at each landing.
Checking today I find the site has been updated and the relevant page is
missing.
If you're interested in the cenotes, read:
http://www.sci.mus.mn.us/sln/ma/chichen.html
(no water stairs there though) and for the Einsatzgruppen:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/einsatz1a.htm
or the death camps:
http://www.spectacle.org/496/camps.html
Re "beginners' call", MV387 and earlier: with all those theatrical and
performance references my money's on that moment before curtain-up. I've no
argument with the last call of all.
Re duplicates (MV388): can't explain that one -- OK leaving me. Again,
don't fear, it CAN'T run away with itself -- but please realise MV
distributes an average of 35 messages per week to 90 addresses, that's
effectively 3150 e-mails according to my reckoning. Messages bounce, or
become delayed for 4 hours or 5 days at a time, network congestion forces
aborted sends where some may have got through but not others -- the odd
glitch is inevitable but never (I hope) harmful.
Bye -- S
==============================================================================
From: "Jean Rogers/Roger Cornwell" <email address>
Subject: MV390 Re: My voice will be the only one
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:37:39 -0000
Dear Steve,
I realise this is right at the end of the queue, my only excuse is that
Jean and I took a holiday in New England and it's taken us till now to
catch up with some of the Emails.
Yes please, could we have (if the list is still open) one copy of both the
video and whatever Pete Atkin CDs are produced, my preference as with most
others is for your option 2(a) - the double set with all the songs on it.
Thanks,
Roger Cornwell.
==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:56:48 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV391: My two pen'orth, followed by 12.99 worth
If I were to choose a line or two from the records I actually own
as favorites, or at least as lines that resonate somehow, they
would be
And the echoes and reverbs
Ultrasonic spice and herbs....
As for the larger amount, I've just ordered the CD from Magpie,
and it will wing its way to me here in the US in due course.
I just hope it flies better than most of the Magpie's I've actually
seen, which seem to move their bulk around in a series of
augmented hops.
Dave J.
==============================================================================
From: B & J Cotterill <email address>
Subject: MV392 Re: MV348 No Dice
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:51:03 -0000
I've found Mel's poetic references very interesting and have one more to add.
As regards the subject of each verse of No Dice my opinions are as follows:
1. Definitely an aged eskimo. In the early 60s (I think) I saw a film about
an eskimo community. A new baby was born and the grandmother took herself
out on to the ice to die. It seemed that this was their custom - a new
generation arrived and it was time for the old ones to make way for them,
presumably for practical reasons. As the line in the song says "with these
old hands I couldn't even sew" and because I'd seen the film, I assume it
to be a woman. In fact I'd rather forgotten about the film, but when I
heard No Dice many years later the image came sharply back to me. However
"with this old brain" I can't remember either the title of the film, nor
the names of any of the actors.
2. Yes, this sounds like a landing on a Pacific Island.
3. I feel this is more on the lines of a human sacrifice, somewhere like Peru.
4. I had to search the whole house to find my "Contemporary American Poetry"
and this poem by Anthony Hecht. It starts with a reference to the execution
of Guy Fawkes, and then...
"We move now to outside a German wood.
Three men are there commanded to dig a hole
In which the two Jews are ordered to lie down
And be buried alive by the third, who is a Pole.
Not light from the shrine at Weimar beyond the hill
Nor light from heaven appeared. But he did refuse.
A Luger settled back deeply in its glove.
He was ordered to change places with the Jews.
Much casual death had drained away their souls.
The thick dirt mounted toward the quivering chin.
When only the head was exposed the order came
To dig him out again and to get back in ... ."
A very bleak poem, which ends with all three men dead. But it seems to have a
very close link with "Yesterday we finished with the ditch". Whether or not
it is a true incident I have no idea.
On a lighter note, I very much like "the beginner's chord and the very
last chord of all" and the logical analysis.
Regards
Jenny
==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:37:27 +0000
From: Gerald Smith <email address>
Subject: MV393: PA CD from SFM
Has anyone else who ordered their eagerly awaited CD re-release from Magpie
had it delivered yet? Apparently several voices have already received
theirs, or perhaps they have been obtained from another source.
Magpie were quick enough to take my cash and assure me that I should get
the CD in the next few days. Anyone else having the same problem?
Gerald Smith
==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:57:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeff Moss <email address>
Subject: MV394: On the last hill that shows you....Zion?
Whilst browsing an anthology of Byron's poetry (I'm ploughing through "Don
Juan" and am being well rewarded for my efforts), I came across this opening
to "On the Day of the Destruction of Jerusalem by Titus":
From the last hill that looks on thy once holy dome,
I beheld thee, O Sion! when render'd to Rome:
'Twas thy last sun went down, and the flames of thy fall,
Flashed back on the last glance I gave to thy wall.
Irrelevant? Coincidence? Or, perhaps, another piece in place in the jigsaw
of CJ's lyrics?
Jeff Moss
==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:27:05 -0500 (EST)
From: PETHIP<email address>
Subject: MV395 Re: MV393: PA CD from SFM
I received my copy of the CD last week and it has already been played 5 or 6
times. Yours I assume should be with you soon. Give Magpie a call, I did and
they checked my order and told me when it was to be released.
==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:55:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Elphinking<email address>
Subject: MV396 Re: MV393: PA CD from SFM
My cd from Magpie arrived this morning, simultaneously that Mike Ingham, an
inveterate collector of vinyl and by-the-by the football correspondent of
Radio 5 who may be known to Pete, presented me proudly with a first-edition
cassette of Touch Has a Memory which he stumbled upon on one of his record
shop trawls...it's hard to know where to start...cd for home, cassette for
car I suppose.
==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:55:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Elphinking<email address>
Subject: MV397 Re: MV394: On the last hill that shows you....Zion?
All these literary links are beginnign to show our Clive as something of a
master plagiarist...or is that cynical?
==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:23:38 -0500 (EST)
From: DangerDon<email address>
Subject: MV398 Re: the new BOTBS CD
Someone posted that the new CD was on display at Tower Records at Picadilly
Circus so I flew along there but no dice. And none of the staff were the
slightest bit interested in helping me find it.
So I wandered into HMV at the Trocadero,Picadilly and was wandering around,
clearly lost, when out of the blue, an assistant asked me if I needed help. I
said I was after Pete's new CD (of which he was unaware) but he found it on
his computer, ordered it up, took my name & address and said ' 7 - 10 days,
and we'll send you a card as soon as it arrives.' I was deeply impressed -
it's restored my faith in big record chains.
Only another 5 - 8 days to go...
Oh and can anyone help? 'Payday Evenings' : '...and Pompadour's theatre in
the stairs...' Who? What?
And in closing, one more favourite line: 'In time the swelling bark takes in
the nails.'
Fabulous.
Best wishes,
Don Bowen
==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:43:55 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
Subject: MV399 Re: MV397; MV394: On the last hill that shows you....Zion?
>> All these literary links are beginnign to show our Clive as something of a
>> master plagiarist...or is that cynical?
Well, it depends. We all proceed under the inspiration of others;
plagarism is just one of the extremities. Anyway, it could be said that
if it took all of us clever dicks to track these sources down, then the
plagarism (if it be so) is pretty well hidden.
Actually, having read pretty much everything CJ's written, the only
(slightly) negative point I'd make is his habit of repeating himself;
some of his stories, or similes, or allusions crop up in a number of
places in his work. No, I can't think of any at the moment, though I
think there are a few in "Brilliant Creatures". Someone's already
commented on his stylistic touch of commenting on his own work via the
footnotes in that novel (cf. Eliot's "The Waste Land"), which is one
way of highlighting the original sources.
Cheers,
Jeremy
==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:52:43 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
Subject: MV400 Re: MV398 Re: the new BOTBS CD
>> Oh and can anyone help? 'Payday Evenings' : '...and Pompadour's theatre in
>> the stairs...' Who? What?
I've already asked about this, but I don't think we nailed it down.
Thinking it had something to do with Versailles, I kept my eye open for
a theatre in (under?) the stairs when we were there, but couldn't find
one. I don't know if it's supposed to be somewhere else. Either way, I
think the image of a theatre under the stairs to be such a compelling
one (especially in the contrast to the jukebox and stack of canvas
chairs) that it almost wouldn't have to exist in reality.
Cheers,
Jeremy
==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:06:27 -0500
From: John Ramsey <email address>
Subject: MV401: Plagiarism
>All these literary links are beginnign to show our Clive as something of a
>master plagiarist...or is that cynical?
I don't think its plagiarism. For one thing, a few allusions as part of a
new piece of work don't add up to a rip off.
Secondly, nothing that anyone ever writes comes "out of whole cloth". It
all comes from the total of everything that has ever been read seen or
otherwise experienced. Was CJ plagiarising his own life when he wrote
"Unreliable Memoirs"? Sometimes things are seen, forgotten and then emerge
transmogrified by other experiences to form part of something new. Perhaps
some of the lines CJ wrote fall into this category
John.
==============================================================================
From: Benjamin.Peterson<email address>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 15:20:13 +0000
Subject: MV402 Re: MV397; MV394: On the last hill that shows you....Zion?
>All these literary links are beginnign to show our Clive as something of a
>master plagiarist...or is that cynical?
When it's someone you like, you don't call it 'plagiarism', you call it
'collage' :)
==============================================================================
From: PayneS<email address>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:14:36 +0000
Subject: MV403: Have you seen .. the joker?
Someone (Cary?) made an unanswered request for some thoughts about I See
the Joker.
I was struck by Pete's introduction to it in Winchester. He described
it as a "movie", which for me captures its style perfectly. He also
admitted that its sense of paranoia always put him in mind of Richard
Nixon!
On the movie idea - wouldn't the song have made an excellent theme for
"The long good friday"? It's years and years since I saw this film, but
I think it stars Bob Hoskins and Helen Mirren, and in my memory it's
about a very similar scenario to the song.
While I'm here, my CD arrived today, so they must be coming through in
dribs and drabs. It's worth waiting for.
S
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:22:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Elphinking<email address>
Subject: MV404 Re: MV402; MV397; MV394: On the last hill that shows you....Zion?
As a writer myself I fully understand and appreciate the concept of
'inspiration', but one usually makes some effort to mask the muse.
Much as I admire CJ's lyrics I am becoming a little disillusioned by what are
being exposed as rather direct 'lifts' from so many sources, if our
illustrious fellow Voices are to be believed.
It is powerful images like 'Shadow and the Widower', 'The Last Hill', 'A King
at Nightfall' which I like so much and I would be disappointed to find they
are a long way from original...next thing we'll find out 'The Girl on the
Train' was a short story by Waterhouse or Perfect Moments is really by
Houseman.
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:44:18 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV405 Re: (MVs various) Water Stair
Now, this looks more like it:
Location Lake Titicaca, Bolivia/Peru border.
"The legends of treasures in Lake Titicaca began nearly as soon as the
Spaniards, who entered Peru in 1532, became aware of it. In 1541 Almagro
the Younger accused Hernando Pizarro of having sent men to search for
treasure in the lake with the result that ten men drowned (Bandelier
1910:188). In 1621 Ramos (1978:88) wrote the then already well-known story
of treasure from the Temple of the Sun, on the Island of the Sun, having
been thrown into the lake in order to prevent it from falling into the
hands of the Spaniards. Eventually the legend arose that a chain of gold of
the Incas had been thrown into Lake Titicaca.
"..... In 1975 Carlos Ponce led a team (including two divers) to
investigate the legend of an underwater stairway between the islands of Koa
and Pallalla (Ponce 1989:54) (fig. 2). No sign of this was found."
The article goes on to speak of human sacrifice, and of gold artefacts
having being lowered into the water on ropes. Titicaca seems to bring
together the lake (rather than mountain) sacrifice and high altitude (3812m
a.s.l.) themes -- "the last deep lake before the snow".
Ref http://www.reinhard.sympatico.ca/docs/academic/lake11.htm
-- Steve
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:47:22 +0000
From: S J Birkill <<email address>>
Subject: MV406: New Welcome Message
Dear friends and Midnight Voices,
It's time to revise our welcome message. I'm sending this out to existing
as well as new members to keep everyone up to date and remind them of the
"rules". We don't yet have a FAQ -- this is the best you get!
Welcome to Midnight Voices, the Pete Atkin e-mail discussion forum. We've
now been going for 11 weeks and our membership stands at 95, of whom 17
have elected to receive their updates weekly rather than daily. On average
37 messages are posted each week.
The group topic is defined as "anything at all to do with Pete or his
music, or his associates at Cambridge or subsequently on TV, radio, record
or on tour". This includes Clive James and Julie Covington and their own
careers, the Atkin/James songs, the musicians, lyrics, chords, shows, club
gigs, records, tapes, books, films, radio and TV appearances -- if you've
got here then the chances are you share more than one interest with the
group. Any questions posted for Pete Atkin's attention will be passed on,
and I will include his replies in my future contributions.
The way we operate is not necessarily the same as an automated listserver.
Messages are remailed manually, so the mailing list is not published
anywhere. Indeed, if you lurk without posting, your presence will remain
unknown even within the group. So you need have no fear of 'spam' infecting
our operation. If you have a question, comment, opinion or reply for the
group, send it as an e-mail to the list address:
Midnight Voices <email address>
We will add a header with an MV number and remail it, normally within a
day, to the entire 'daily' group. 'Weekly' members will receive a 'digest'
each weekend, combining all the previous week's posts into one long message.
My own e-mail address, for administration (add, remove, resend, change to
daily/weekly) is Steve Birkill <email address>.
We no longer re-send 'bounced' messages automatically. If your bounces
appear to be permanent we'll delete you from the list. Should you have
somehow missed a message, mail me direct and request a re-send. If it's
less than a week old you'll get just the message requested, but if it's
older you'll receive the appropriate week's digest. For reference, here's
the digest catalogue for the first 10 weeks:
Week 1 includes MV 1 - MV 39 sent 07.09.97 (9/7/97)
Week 2 MV 40 - MV 85 13.09.97
Week 3 MV 86 - MV118 20.09.97
Week 4 MV119 - MV161 28.09.97
Week 5 MV162 - MV203 04.10.97
Week 6 MV204 - MV230 12.10.97
Week 7 MV231 - MV250 19.10.97
Week 8 MV251 - MV290 25.10.97
Week 9 MV291 - MV333 01.11.97
Week 10 MV334 - MV362 08.11.97
If you occasionally receive duplicate messages please be tolerant -- my
computer is only human. There's no danger of messages looping indefinitely.
If you always receive duplicates please let me know -- I may have entered
your details twice.
Some e-mail programs may have defaults set which cause them to ignore
messages above a certain length. Our weekly digests can reach 70k in size,
so please adjust your software if necessary. Also a special note for
CompuServe members: CS's new spam-avoidance system tends to block mailing
list messages and could result in your missing most of our precious
throughput. It's ON by default -- you need to GO SPAMCONTROLS and select
Filter OFF, if you're not reading this.
If you're confused by what the nuts on this list are talking about, you
might like to familiarise yourself with our Website:
http://www.rwt.co.uk/pa.htm for background, news, releases and gigs.
http://www.rwt.co.uk/padiscog.htm for discography, lyrics and chords.
http://www.rwt.co.uk/jc.htm for everything to do with Julie Covington.
If you're new to the group, you're hereby invited to introduce yourself!
Talk superbly,
Stephen J Birkill
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:55:31 -0800
From: m.powell<email address>
Subject: MV407 Re: MV399; MV397; MV394: On the last hill that shows
you....Zion?
> Actually, having read pretty much everything CJ's written, the only
> (slightly) negative point I'd make is his habit of repeating himself;
> some of his stories, or similes, or allusions crop up in a number of
> places in his work. No, I can't think of any at the moment, though I
> think there are a few in "Brilliant Creatures". Someone's already
> commented on his stylistic touch of commenting on his own work via the
> footnotes in that novel (cf. Eliot's "The Waste Land"), which is one
> way of highlighting the original sources.
Glad someone else has picked this up. My favourite, because it adds to
our understanding of the earlier song, is the way in which The Double
Agent shows up again in the guise of Antonia Blunt aka The Mole in the
novel The Remake. What makes it even better is that in relation to The
Mole, Clive gives a more detailed explanation of his theory of (from
memory this) 'terrible simultaneity' (the tendency of real life to
juxtapose beauty and terror so that just at the moment when a million
people get it in the head, the loved one joins the silks and perfumes of
her bed, or in the Mole's case, throws back her beautiful head in
pleasure just as equally beautiful heads are thrown back in pain all
over the world.) And yes, in the novel as in the song, the mere fact of
her existence compensates the narrator for the lot.
Mel Powell
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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