Midnight Voices 
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Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:12 +0100 (BST)
Subject: MV86: Re: Digest: Midnight Voices week 1
From: <email address> (Stephen R Bennett)
Hi Everyone,
YET ANOTHER INTRODUCTION(I didn't know that I had so many Dopplegangers)
I'm a 43 year old (welsh decent) ex rugby playing Male working as a
self Employed Graphics and Design Consultant (Not yet Successful).
I first got into PA/CJ after a girlfriend of mine kept me up all night
listening to BOTBS,
DTMA, and assorted CSNY, Leonard Cohen, Judy Collins and James Taylor, The
last Four I'd heard off but who was this guy Pete Atkin!!!.
As an 18yr old the last thing I wanted was to " spend all night listening
to music ",can you blame me!
but after the JT and CSNY on went BOTBS, I was hooked. like Cohen there
were intelligent thought provoking lyrics,but there the comparison ended
while LC was always contemplative even at times depressive.
BOTBT was refreshing, thought provoking even at times humorous what a
find, as dawn broke it found us replaying DTMA for the 3rd time (what her
flat mates thought by this time I hate to think) and discussing what the
lyrics REALLY MEANT.
We were still talking about it over Breakfast with her Flatmates ,( 2 quite
scantily clad young ladies as I remember....and me Talking Lyrics, by now a
Hopeless case of acute ATKINISM).
One of the Flatmates who's names have dissapeared in the mists of time(
Sorry Girls if you read this and remember, its been a hectic 25 years!)
said that they were going to Salford Uni. that night to see some guy called
.....Pete ATKIN...
The gods were truely with me, introduced to PA one night and within 24
hours I was off to see him Live.
The start of a long journey-
From heavy / underground Rocker.(Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin,Stackridge,
Family ,King
Crimson, The Nice ,Jimmy H. Jefferson Airplane, Free, The Doors ,Dr John
,Frank Zappa , Captain Beefheart, CSNandY)
through PA /CJ for many years and as a natural extension into other English
singer/songwriters _Nick Drake, Clifford T Ward, Jake Thakerey, Sandy
Denny and from Sandy into what for the last 20 years has been my musical
love Fairport Convention ( and Steeleye Span, Albion Band, Fotheringay, and
all things FOLK ROCK,
but no pipes/arun sweaters..... I promise).
looking forward to the re-release of the albums on C.D..
sorry for such a long posting, look at my website:-
http://village.vossnet.co.uk/s/stevebee
for my musical likes and links to other great sites.
Steve Bennett
<postal address>
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..COME FRIENDLY BOMBS AND FALL ON-------------------.
Sir J.B.
<phone number>
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Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:40:38 +0100
From: Helen Dinsdale <email address>
Subject: MV87: Re: Digest: Midnight Voices week 1
At 11:40 07.09.97 +0100, you wrote:
>Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:22:49 +0100
>To: Midnight Voices <email address>
>From: S J Birkill <email address>
>Subject: Welcome Message -- again ...
>
>Hello everyone,
Hello to all a whole group of people I had no idea existed a few weeks ago.
I thought I was the only one who still remembered Pete Atkin and cherished
his LPs. Fortunately Radio 5 Live mentioned Steve's web site and here I am.
A 40 something female, married and living in West Yorkshire while working as
an EHO in Blackpool. Bu the way my husband can't stand Pete and reckons I'm
regressing with my reawakened interest!
I first came across Pete whilst baby-sitting as an infant (well almost), my
hosts had a couple of his LPs. My appetite whetted I collected the rest as
they came out. I was fortunate enough to see Pete at a couple of pub gigs in
London and travelled to a folk festival in Charnock Richard at which he starred.
I'd love it if his albums were reissued on CD. We no longer have a record
player so my enjoyment of his music is limited to King at Nightfall and some
of Secret Drinker which I transferred to tape years ago.
My other interests, nothing much musical. I think I'm more of a visual
person, maybe it's the fact that Pete/Clive manage to bring such intense
images to mind that attracted me. I'm currently studying with the OU and
finding it rather hard going, and am a passionate rugby league fan - of
Keighley Cougars specifically.
Looking forward to reading lots morePA info, all the best to you all,
Helen
--
Helen Dinsdale
<email address>
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Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:39:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Chippett <email address>
Subject: MV88: words and music
I've just been looking at "Secret Drinker" for the first time in a long time.
Apart from the unusual chord changes which one never comes across in almost
any other writer, I can't imagine how PA could have fitted the music to an
existing lyric as the lines are so uneven unless CJ was deliberately
stretching PA's writing abilities to the limit which is not impossible. I
reckon that here we have an example of music first, words after. Am I right?
Can anyone tell me what and where the "Sunlight Gate" is? Or the Sunset Gate
for that matter.
It's true that almost everyone outside France pronounces "Verlaine" so as to
rhyme with "Train" so it doesn't really matter if CJ does so. I'd forgotten,
however, that in the same song CJ rhymes "Mouth" with "Earth". Now this is
not on. If you use eye-rhymes once, then you should continue all the time.
It's not really poetic license, more a case of inspiration temporarily drying
up, I reckon. A tiny blemish on an otherwise great song. They don't do it
very often, though. Can anyone find another example?
All the best
Ian Chippett
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From: Cary <email address>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:08:09 +0000
Subject: MV89: Initialisation of the World
Now call me SOT (slow of thinking) or NABEPAA (not a big enough Pete
Atkin Anorak ) but is anyone else having trouble WATA (with all these
abbreviations) No? Maybe I'm older than I think!! So, for my benefit
and any one else WNI (who needs it) here is ABRG (a brief reference
guide) Hope it helps but if not it's made a happy woman very old.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DTMA - Driving Through Mythical America
AKAN - A King at Nightfall
TROS - The Road of Silk
SD - Secret Drinker
LL - Live Libel
TMOTR - The Master of the Revels
TRTTWE - The Rider to the World's End
THAM - Touch Has A Memory
TBC - The Beautiful Changes
WTML - While The Music Lasts
TPMO - The Party's Moving On
BOTBS - Beware of the Beautiful Stranger
GOAT - Girl on a Train ( also large fury animals)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_/\ /\_
Cary a a
Like Mary @
With a 'C' for cat
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:09:14 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV90: Re: MV89: Initialisation of the World
If I may add another which might have confused some:
WAYDATS - "What Are You Doing After The Show?" -- TV late-night revue
series broadcast on LWT in 1970, featuring PA and JC with many chums
including Maggie Scott and Dai Davies. Luscious arrangements of PA/CJ
songs, with orchestra. No video recordings survive, though we might dream
of some nutter having taped the whole series on one of those early
reel-to-reel helical-scan VTRs, and the tapes lying unrecognised in a dusty
box in someone's attic -- SJB
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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:25:48 +0100
From: Dave Bondy <email address>
Subject: MV91: Monyash 98
For what its worth (and I am one of the sad ones who requested a digest
rather than a daily fix MV hence the delayed response) I would say that
Monyash 98 should keep the same format as this years' one.
I think it will appeal to a wider audience and (hopefully) get more
people interested in the music of PA which _should_ result in more
requests for album re-issues on CD.
The formula was great Steve / Carole and I thought it was brilliant - I
also loved staying at the Bull's Head.
Keep up the good work.
-- Dave
P.S. Don't forget to re-book Brent for next year also!
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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:50:42 +0100
To: Ian Chippett <email address>
From: gerald smith <email address>
Subject: MV92: Your mail
Cc: Midnight Voices <email address>
Ian
Thanks for your mail earlier to-day. I believe you did write back
about the faded mansion, even if it may inadvertantly have been forwarded to
Alaska!
You raised some interesting points. I'll answer them as best I can. In the
section which you described as the 'chorus' (Between the headlands to the
sea...etc), the progression isn't really G, Gmaj7, Em. In my original
version I had it down as G, Bm, (or more precisely, Bm/F#, ie, Bm in the
second inversion) , followed by Em. Perhaps this was slightly short-sighted
of me. I had assumed that this section of the song had a tonic centre based
around G , natural enough, given than G is the opening chord. In this way,
the opening line, 'Between the headlands to the sea', would correlate to a
progression of: I, III, VI (G, Bm, Em). This is tenable, because Bm is the
Vth of Em, and so thus would form a V-I perfect cadence. However, I do not
believe it works this way. I think it better to assume that the whole of
this passage, up till...'giant seabirds flying low', is in Em. This is why;
the oening chord (G) is the relative minor of Em, or, chord VI. It's quite
acceptable to combine the two in a progression (although too close a
juxtaposition can create a progressional stasis). So, in other words, he
starts the 'chorus' in G, moves to a slightly altered dominant of G (Dm6)
and thence to Em, thus forming the progression I, V, IV; this is the
semi-colon, a sort of imperfect/interrupted cadence. The following chord is
B7. This resolves to Em, thus forming a V-I perfect cadence at the end of
the line(fleeing yachts of summer go). It does not really matter that the
closing chord of that line is E major and not Eminor - that's just a
chromatic alteration; many of the greatest of composors have indulged in
this; Schubert in his day, as an early Romantic caused storms as a result of
his propensity to modulate wildly (in those circles, anyway).
**
This leads on to what I believe is the crux of the individuality of the
PA/CJ product, and, not to put too fine a point on it, why the product did
not achieve the commercial recognition which it merrited. Let's not forget,
T-Rex, fun as he was and the like were topping the charts. I don't think
there's any doubt, CJ in his lyric writing was inspired by the ideals of
Romanticism. Indeed, there are many references to literature throughout the
ages. PA reflected the nuances of this writing in the sensitive, nay,
symbiotic, even, way in which he constructed the songs. Just as the Romantic
composors in varying degrees laid waste the compositional tradions of the
past, PA and CJ boldly embarked upon the business of writing a song from a
challenging and unique viewpoint. I have come to the conclusion, vis a vis
the 'words before music' debate, that this was indeed a partnership; 50-50.
----------------------------------------
(The following paragraphs should come after the above, at the point marked
**. Sorry, can't get cut and paste to work in email mode)
So this is why PA uses the Dm6 chord. It forms the basis of an imperfect
cadence which subsequently confirms the key in Em. Also, the m6 chord has a
rather emotional, yearning quality about it. Very appropriate to the lyric.
Its far more evocative than the Bm chord which I originally suggested.
All this, basically, is about 'colour', light and dark moods', which weave
around each other, reflecting the 'bitter/sweet' flavour of the song.
So, the Dm6 acts as a sort of semi colon in the sentence which travels from
G to Em.
-------------------------------------------
Anyway, fascinating as this is, I must go to bed before I write an essay -
duty calls, morning after, etc.
best wishes
gerald SMith
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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:04:11 -0400
From: John Ramsey <email address>
Subject: MV93: Sunlight Gate.
Re. Sunlight Gate.
As I understand it, the song is about WW2 daylight bomber crews, as seen
from the perspective of a member of the ground crew. The gates in question
aren't meant to be taken literally, I think that this is just an image of
the crews as knights riding forth from a castle, and returning in the
sunset. I hope this makes sense, and I'm happy to read anyone else's
interpretation.
On a different subject, I read CJ's article on Diana today - originally
published in the New Yorker. The Sunday Telegraph carried it today.
My reaction is a strong desire to kick CJ's bum repeatedly. It was that
bad? No, that good. Like most of us, I suspect, I would kill to be able to
write material as good as the CJ/PA lyrics. My sadness is that the
Contemporary CJ - that guy on the telly - is a schlockmeister. Shocked?
But who, apart from us cognescenti, believes he could ever have been a
brilliant songwriter? The Diana article proves he can still put his talent
to good use when he can be bothered.
Midnight Voices must organise a mass campaign to boycot all such offerings
as CJ on TV and force the errant Mr. James back to serious writing. How
about it Clive - that headache's our crosswires on your brow!
: ) as they say,
John.
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:07:28 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV94: One Midnight Voice
Hello everyone.
Quiet, innit?
To break the silence, here are some thoughts from Pete, which he's
assembled over the past few days in response to your various posts to the
forum:
BEGIN QUOTE ---------------------------------------------------------------
One of the great things about reading everyone's thoughts (quite apart from
the delicious danger of having my head turned by all of this attention) is
the way it has triggered memories of things I wasn't even aware of having
forgotten, such as --
Re: three-sided knife - By George, I think David L. Jones has got it! I
had completely forgotten about the Slaughterhouse 5 reference, but turning
on that small distant lightbulb gives just enough light to illuminate the
relevant dark corner of the memory. I'm sure that's where it came from
(sure enough to authorise Steve to use it in his forthcoming (ahem)
annotation), though I'll try to remember to ask Clive when I next speak to
him just to be certain. And --
Re: Sunlight Gate - I don't think I ever specifically discussed this with
Clive, but I think John Ramsey is pretty much on the button, except that I
have another dim memory from somewhere way back that the "gates" in the
song, while I'm sure they are of course meant to conjure up an image of
castles ("ride out" isn't a phrase you would normally apply to bomber
crews, after all), also refer to a critical morning and evening period
within which it was vital to depart and to return because of fuel or
navigation considerations (sort of a window in a time-frame). In fact, I
wouldn't be surprised (we really didn't talk about any of this stuff much
or at all at the time) if the title phrase and the double-image it conjured
up was where the whole idea for the song came from. With the benefit of
this much hindsight - working on a song at a time I'm absolutely certain
that neither of us was remotely aware of any of this at the time - that
kind of superimposition of recent and distant past is one of the recurring
themes in Clive's lyrics, an idea you can find elsewhere - in Last Hill
perhaps most obviously, but all over the place in individual images as well
as in whole songs. I'm sure you could spot more easily than I could. Over
to you ...
I was rivetted by Gerry Smith's account of the tonality of Faded Mansion.
I've always maintained, in every kind of context, that the writer or
artist's own account of his or her own work is probably the least reliable
of all, and original intentions are of little or no relevance when it comes
to whether and how it works for any individual reader, listener, spectator.
I have no objection whatever to this kind of analysis - in fact I'm
hugely flattered to receive this kind of attention - but do please always
remember that (certainly in this case) it's an analysis of the finished
product, not of the process by which it was written. Apart from school
violin lessons, I'm musically entirely self-taught, having picked stuff up
from listening and reading and experimenting, mainly on the piano.
Anyway, for what it's worth (which, as I say, may be nothing at all), here
are a few thoughts about what little I remember of the process of writing
Faded Mansion —
The main chorus stanza is basically a 12-bar blues (with some fairly hefty
alterations as it turned out, of course). That approach to it came
directly from the three-line shape of the lyric. The verse is an AABA
song-in-itself. This out-of-tempo-verse/chorus structure is one which, as
we've often said, came straight from the great TPA songwriters, Rodgers and
Hart perhaps more even than Cole Porter or the Gershwins (Ten Cents A
Dance, Spring Is Here, Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered, It Never Entered
My Mind - almost everything on the Ella Fitzgerald R&H Songbook albums -
made an enormous impression and lodged themselves very firmly in our
brains). But my guess is that they all wrote the verses AFTER they'd
written the main bit of the song. In our case, I think I always started
with the verse as a song in its own right and let the chorus develop from
it, i.e. rather work backwards and create the verse as a kind of
introduction. In Senior Citizens, for instance, the chorus is basically
exactly the same tune as the verse. With Mansion, having written the
verse in basically C minor, and having resolved it into C major, it just
felt as if it needed to go off somewhere different harmonically, certainly
into another major key, but somewhere not too remote, and F just happened
naturally, probably because, I suppose, looking at it now, the verse being
in C works like a long, extended dominant sequence.
I did (and do) think of the chorus as being in F, even though it resolves
to D. It never occurred to me that because the tune ends in D that
therefore the tune is IN D, and even though the middle eight goes off into
G (as if it really was in D). (Have I lost everybody yet?) Something
else I was completely unaware of at the time, and which is of doubtful
relevance to anything at all in any case, each time it comes back to F for
the start of each chorus stanza, it gets there by a different harmonic
route. (C-C7-F, D-C9-F, G-C9-F) Fascinating or what? Definitely what,
I'd guess.
The Voices' thoughts about the words-or-music-first? question have been
equally fascinating, but for the moment at any rate I think I'd rather
leave the speculations unanswered, partly because the answer is often more
complicated than the question, and partly because the facts of the matter
are probably irrelevant (see above). If thinking or assuming that either
words or music came first is a part of the way you hear the song, what's
the point of telling you otherwise? Still, I guess it's something we
might come back to if anyone's interested enough.
Re: 'interesting chord sequences' --- I can honestly say I have never
started out from or with a chord sequence. Any interestingness comes from
the fact that for me the harmonies I hear in my head derive first from the
melody and second from a perverse desire to avoid anything too obvious. I
don't know if that's 'intellectual', but it certainly reflects our (my)
whole approach to writing songs. I never saw the point of doing again
what other people were already doing well. I suppose that - and the desire
to let the content dictate the style of each individual song - was what led
us to be so hard to categorise in the way that the music business (and,
let's face it, most of the public) seems to require. I think I was aware
of it at the time, but unable to do anything about it. Now I just don't
care. I like to flatter myself that it's that very lack of trendiness
which allows people to listen to the stuff still after all this time.
Reading people's listening lists has been another major fascination, not
least because although there are lots of crossovers with my own, there are
lots of major names on my list which haven't appeared at all. I've said
before that my favourite stuff includes a lot of things I make a conscious
effort to stay away from at the risk of simply sounding imitative, and a
lot of stuff I simply couldn't begin to imitate anyway for all sorts of
reasons, even though it has often pointed the way to all sorts of other
possibilities for me. My list would be long - too long, probably - but
without even looking along my shelves and as a sort fo random selection
down the years, and thinking of them mainly as writers, it would start with
Buddy Holly, moving on to Goffin & King songs (by various), Oscar Brown,
Jr., Jon Hendricks (via Georgie Fame), not forgetting Anthony Newley along
the way (who showed it was OK not to sing in an American accent - one I
think I share with David Bowie), Dylan of course even more than the
Beatles, John Sebastian (Spoonful), early more than late Joni Mitchell,
Randy Newman (specially surprised no one has yet mentioned him), Jesse
Winchester, Robbie Robertson, Wendy Waldman (via early Maria Muldaur),
Amazing Rhythm Aces, Steely Dan and Donald Fagen, Lyle Lovett, first three
Hue & Cry albums, and more recently the Crash Test Dummies, the Ben Folds
Five, the Barenaked Ladies, Shawn Colvin, and Moxy Fruvous - and lots, lots
more I know I've forgotten right now. I'd guess all of those offer some
kind of clue as to what I personally am after, even if it may often be hard
to see the connection. Oh, and if you really want to do yourself an
unexpected favour, check out Trisha Yearwood's version of a Steve Goodman
song called 'A Lover Is Forever' (CD 'Everybody Knows') - it's worth the
price of the whole CD, honest. You'll probably find it in the country
music section which, judging from most of your lists, is not somewhere you
probably find yourselves browsing as a rule.
END QUOTE ----------------------------------------------------------------
Someone suggested I solicit your questions, to put to Pete and Clive. Pete
reports he is quite willing to tackle replying to a selection of such, and
is optimistic about getting some response from CJ too. Over to you (not all
at once now).
Check out some new audio clips of old songs on the Web site, and don't
forget Charlbury on Saturday! And you are all listening to Martin Jarvis,
aren't you?
Steve
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:34:35 GMT
From: email address (Dr Jeremy Walton. <phone number>)
Subject: MV95: Charlbury
Hi there,
Good to read PA's comments, and the solicitation for further discussion.
I'm afraid the only thing I've ever vaguely wondered about their songs
(and this may have already been addressed elsewhere) is why so many of
them (particularly the early ones) have an AAAAA... structure (i.e. all
verses, no chorus or middle eight). Some examples include "Girl on the
train", "Beware of the beautiful stranger", "Practical Man",
"Hypertension kid", "Perfect Moments", "Laughing Boy" and, more
recently, "Canoe". Naively, I used to think that this was because the
songs started out as poetry, which has different requirements on
structure, but reading the remarks about whether the music was written
at the same time as the words has made me wonder again. Any insights?
Also, is Pete taking requests for Saturday? If so, could I say that I'd
like it a lot if he did "Canoe" and "Senior Citizens". Thanks very
much.
Steve: what's Martin Jarvis, and where do we listen to him then, eh?
Cheers,
Jeremy
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:38:25 -0400
From: John Ramsey <email address>
Subject: MV96: Mail not displayed
I have only seen MV94 over the course of the last few days - is it the only
message? i don't know if other readers have seen what Pete, to my pleasure,
confirms to be correct in my message about "Sunlight Gate". Am I missing
out on any other messages?
John Ramsey.
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:57:55 PDT
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV97: Yet another intro
OK, everybody else is doing it:
Dave Jones, age 44, ex York University, living some 16 years in the US, married
to a New Englander with 2 kids. Posseses TROS and SD, wishes he could get
more. Lives by being a software mercenary.
Distinctive features: as a youth, he got Pete confused with John Martyn. Quite a
trick, you might think, but I plead the following: In 1969 Island Records issued the
sampler "You can all join in" with JM's track "Dusty" from "London Conversation".
Notwithstanding John's later vocal slurrings, on this track he sounds a lot like Pete!
Needless to say, at this time record shops in the Frozen North (aka Middlesbrough)
were not replete with either artist's work, so there was no point of reference.
Until Pete showed up on TV (wasn't it "At last the 1948 Show" ?) doing RTTWE.
That's the voice! I thought. And he looks just like one of the crowd on the cover
of the LP (well, he had the same hair and similar facial fuzz). I had missed the
credits so I had no cast list to go on, and never managed to catch the show again.
It took a few years and the arrival of the Whistle Test to straighten me out. At least
I am now a fan of both Pete and John, though having listened to recent JM I'm
sure I'd be happier seeing Pete live now than John. John has a bad case of what
did for Richard Burton, Peter Finch and a host of other creative talents who found
oblivion in booze. Thank God for recordings.
Looking forward to SFM releasing Pete's stuff - put me down for a copy!
Dave Jones
Rochester NY USA (up on the big lake, nowhere near Manhattan).
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:02:24 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV98: Lonely Voices: Re MV95,MV96
Sorry guys, I didn't mean to be cryptic --
"You are all listening to Martin Jarvis, aren't you?" means (in the context
of reminders as requested by Rob in MV12, 3.9.97) "I bet you too made a
mental note to listen to Pete's latest breakfast-time R4 series mentioned
in MV7 (3.9.97) and then forgot till it was half-way through."
"Quiet, innit?" means "You've probably been wondering as I have whether the
channel has gone down and messages aren't getting through. I think it's
just a temporary hiatus, like those grinds-to-a-halt on the motorway which
clear up without any cause ever becoming apparent. A symptom of the
mathematical chaos underlying the affairs of men, perhaps."
I'll try to be clearer in future -- Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cary <email address>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:06:53 +0000
Subject: MV99: Questions?
OK - some questions for Pete ("Questions are a burden to others,
answers a prison for oneself" - what was that quote from? Answers on
a postcard please) I'll try and make them intelligent but if I don't
will you all settle for intelligible.
You mentioned at the "evening do " at Monyash that Clives lyrics were
becoming more intensely personal as time went on. Did you ever feel
with any of the lyrics that you did use that you wanted to explain
that "I didn't write these words". Or, if you had felt that you
wanted to distance yourself from any lyrics would you have agreed to
sing them. Are you/were you able to sing about things that you didn't
agree with?
The lack of commercial success has been mentioned with sadness many
times. Would you have wanted everything else that might have gone
with success? Richard Branson said of Julie that "she simply chose not
to be a Superstar" ... would you have chosen to be one?
On the subject of 'Words or Music' - which do you think is most
important in creating the mood of the song? Did Clive ever come back
to you and say that he felt you'd altered the mood he was hoping to
create? To answer my own question I think that the music 'catches'
you first and sets the mood. The words then hook you. I think one of
the problems with modern life and technology is that we all expect
instant gratification. I find that if I listen to a CD I'll tend to
skip the tracks that I don't instantly like, and it's usually the
music that forms my first judgement. If I'm listening to a tape I'll
'put up' with the tracks I don't like and discover some time later
that they become my favourite.
And a general question(s) to the 'Voices' from someone who finds the
dissection of lyrics interesting but mystifying - does it matter if
you don't understand a song as long as you enjoy it? Does it mater if
you misunderstand a song. Is there ever any definitive meaning even
from the author?
Steve-'One midnight Voice'-was that your tribute to Manly Barrylow?
Yes you are all right - gerroff - OK .......I'm gone!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Cary *
(like Mary with a 'C')
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Martin Nail" <email address>
Subject: MV100: Pete at Islington Folk Club
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:37:35 +0100
Dear all
Just a reminder that Pete is performing at Islington Folk Club on Thursday
16th October. You can find full details of how to get there etc on our Web
page at:
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/martin.nail/IFCintro.htm
Obligatory (it would seem) introduction: I only escape from the
moderately-prosperous middle-class forties male stereotype by having
reached the age of fifty. (But apart from the age, this is the
stereotypical Internet user too, so maybe we have a biased sample here.)
I was introduced to Pete & Clive's songs when I shared a flat with Steve
Cook, who was the bass player on 'The party's moving on' and 'Beware of the
beautiful stranger'. That was before 'Beware of the beautiful stranger'
came out so my first introduction was via 'While the music lasts' and 'The
party's moving on'. I have to admit that the songs of that period remain
my favourites. I think that this is because I find these songs on whole
more melodic than many of the later ones, which is important to me as I
sing unaccompanied.
My other musical tastes don't coincide much with other members of the
group, being mainly traditional music from various parts of the world (such
as England) and classical. I'm surprised to have seen only one mention of
Tom Lehrer, whose records I seem to remember spending a lot of time
listening to at University.
Someone asked why Pete was classified as a folk singer: as a folkie myself,
I would never have called him one. Musically the influences Pete mentions
(Rogers and Hart, Cole Porter and the Gershwins) are pretty much closer to
the mark. Apart from the usage that calls anyone a folksinger who sings
with an acoustic guitar, I suspect it's just because Pete has performed a
fair few folk clubs. And that in turn is because most clubs have a fairly
open-minded booking policy, and before the arts centre circuit existed folk
clubs were one of the few types of venue that booked solo singers.
Which brings me back to Islington; we have been booking Pete on and off for
some years (though quite a gap since the last one) and I perform songs like
'Girl on a train', 'Beware of the beautiful stranger' and 'Ballad of an
upstairs window' there fairly regularly.
Hope to see some members of this list there in October.
Martin Nail
<email address>
Internet resources on English folk and traditional music:
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/martin.nail/Folkmus.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:38:33 PDT
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV101: Certain Atkin-deficient people
Strange to tell, there were those with whom Pete was not
popular on the college circuit. I speak of college
administrators and security people.
Was this because of the noise of his performance? Hardly,
even with the backing band. Mr. Mellow, our Pete.
Was it because of exotic cheroots, used
prophylactics and discarded items of intimate apparel
littering the floor after each concert ? Not that I noticed.
No, it was that the man just Kept On Playing! There were
the Joy Police off to the side just waiting to enforce curfew
on the horde of unwashed youth, and there was Pete doing
fourth, fifth and sixth encores! If I remember right, Langwith
College, York Univ, either enforced, or threatened to enforce
a ban on future concerts in the dining room after Pete kept
going past 11 pm. There was a kind of sweet dread in
knowing that the concert was getting into dangerous
territory but was much too good to stop. Such memories.
Dave Jones.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:25:00 GMT
From: email address (Dr Jeremy Walton. <phone number>)
Subject: MV102: Re: MV97: Yet another intro
Hi Dave,
>> It took a few years and the arrival of the Whistle Test to straighten
>> me out. At least I am now a fan of both Pete and John, though having
>> listened to recent JM I'm sure I'd be happier seeing Pete live now than
>> John. John has a bad case of what did for Richard Burton, Peter Finch
>> and a host of other creative talents who found oblivion in booze.
>> Thank God for recordings.
Good to hear of another JM fan. I agree he sounds like Pete on his
earlier records - I recall hearing them for the first time (after having
been introduced to him via his middle, slurring period) and having to
check the sleeve several times, as I didn't believe it was the same
bloke - due to both the clarity of his singing and the acoustic guitar
chops.
I've seen him several times over the past fifteen years, and some of his
shows were amongst the best I'd ever experienced. Sadly however, I'd
agree with you about his current state - we saw him in Oxford a couple
of years ago and found it pretty embarassing. Physically, he appeared
to be all over the place, although he could still play that gold Les
Paul as well as ever. Up till recently, his records were still
excellent, although a spate of re-recordings, compilations and live
albums (on less-impressive labels) have indicated something of a
downturn in his creativity. A different path from PA, who appeared to
have just stopped releasing records while still at the height of his
powers (and got himself a steady day job as well).
Cheers,
Jeremy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:20:07 -0400
From: John Ramsey <email address>
Subject: MV103: Water Stair
On the subject of obscure lyrics, I wonder if anyone can tell me what a
"water stair" as mentioned in "No Dice" is? The verse sounds as if its
something to do with conquistadores exploring the Andes.
Joh Ramsey
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:06:41 PDT
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV104: A modest proposal
Here in the US there is a phenomenon called John Tesh. Putting his career
alongside that of Pete Atkin you have to conclude "There ain't no justice".
Starting out as the handsome, boyish co-host of the nightly TV fluff-fest,
"Entertainment Tonight", John moved on to other things, and has now
come to represent what Oblivia Neutron-Bomb represented a decade
ago - the very epitome of calorie-free white-bread artistry. Most recently
he attracted attention as a commentator of unparalleled vacuousness
during US coverage of the Olympics.
But get this - he's also a musician (I use the term loosely). Sure enough
his musical output is no more worthy than the rest of him, but it gets a
certain audience. In particular his concert video "John Tesh at Red Rock"
is a fixture during "Pledge Drives" on the Public Television Service.
One week in 12 or so, your local public TV station suspends programming
for a mixture of pleas for contributions and "specials", such as old
recordings
of concerts by the Grateful Dead, a reunited Eagles, various orchestras,
and of course, Mr. Tesh, leading his crew from the piano keyboard in
a natural amphitheatre somewhere in the mountains of Colorado.
Now it occurred to me that if we had, say, 90 minutes of an excellent
musician such as Pete Atkin recorded in front of an audience (irrelevant
audience reaction shots are mandatory here), and offered it to public TV,
it would serve two purposes: Pete would get a US audience and we would
get some relief from endless repeats of Tesh/Dead/Eagles, not to mention
seeing one of our favourite musicians again.
Just a fantasy of mine...
Dave Jones.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:37:50 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV105: Re: MV103: Water Stair
Tough one that, John. it seems to refer to the Mayan burial tradition of
treasures and human sacrificial victims in the Cenotes or sacred wells
around Chichen Itza, Mexico, but also to Inca-style ritual human sacrifice
in the Peruvian Andes (thin air, snow). I haven't found anywhere else where
both descriptive strands coexist.
-- Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Benjamin Peterson <email address>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 15:03:45 +0100
Subject: MV106: Stairs and Day Jobs
>A different path from PA, who appeared to >have just stopped
>releasing records while still at the height of his >powers (and got
>himself a steady day job as well).
Oh aye? What's his day job?
>On the subject of obscure lyrics, I wonder if anyone can tell me what
>a "water stair" as mentioned in "No Dice" is? The verse sounds as if
>its something to do with conquistadores exploring the Andes.
It's some stairs that lead downward into water, from a ship or an
embankment -- HMS Victory is covered in the things. You use them to
get out of the ship and into it's boats. I'd estimate they're using
the sling to lower the gold into the boat, climbing down the stairs
into the boat, and then paddling the boat out somewhere to throw the
gold overboard into deep water...
...although WHY they're doing this is another matter. I've always
liked that song though.
On the subject of stairs, am I right in thinking that part of 'Payday
Evening' goes '...and the gardens of their heyday in Versailles / and
Pompadour's theatre and the stairs'? What stairs might these be?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
<email address>
'Oft him anhaga / are gebideth'
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions have nothing to do with those of my employer, or indeed
with reality itself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Benjamin Peterson <email address>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 16:06:47 +0100
Subject: MV107: Question for Pete
But first, an answer...
>OK - some questions for Pete ("Questions are a burden to others,
>answers a prison for oneself" - what was that quote from? Answers on
>a postcard please)
From The Prisoner. Also from the Iron Maiden song 'Back in the
Village'. This is not necessarily an endorsement of Iron Maiden :)
Okay, my question is this: it seems to me that in the more personal
songs (the likes of Girl on a Train, Payday Evening, Hypertension Kid
and such) a pretty clear picture emerges of a narrator -- that is, I
can imagine one person feeling all those things and I think we get a
pretty close view of his personality from the songs. Let's call him
'Laughing Boy'. Now, the question is, is 'Laughing Boy' Pete, Clive,
or both, or is he a conscious invention... or did he just 'happen'?
Oh, and...
>does it matter if you don't understand a song as long as you enjoy
>it?
Of course not! That's why my two favourite groups are Blue Oyster
Cult and They Might Be Giants!
Benjamin
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cary <email address>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:00:14 +0000
Subject: MV108: Re: MV107: Question for Pete
> > From The Prisoner. Also from the Iron Maiden song 'Back in
> > the Village'. This is not necessarily an endorsement of
> > Iron Maiden :)
Correct!! And I forgot to put Iron Maiden on my list of faves. I
wonder if they could cover one of Pete's songs. Judas Priest once did
a cover of Joan Baez's Diamonds and Rust. I think I'd prefer to hear
Iron Maiden do 'I see the Joker'
> > Oh, and...
> > >does it matter if you don't understand a song as long as
> > >you enjoy it?
> > Of course not! That's why my two favourite groups are Blue
> > Oyster Cult and They Might Be Giants!
A supplement to my own question.... does it matter to the authors?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Cary *
(like Mary with a 'C')
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:23:37 +0100
From: Max Murdoch <email address>
Subject: MV109: Re: MV89: Initialisation of the World
Well said, Cary.
All of these abbreviations remind me too much of CB radio, which is a
real turn-off.
Max Murdoch
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:42:49 -0400
From: John Ramsey <email address>
Subject: MV110: WATER STAIRS
> It's some stairs that lead downward into water, from a ship or an
> embankment -- HMS Victory is covered in the things. You use them to
> get out of the ship and into it's boats. I'd estimate they're using
> the sling to lower the gold into the boat, climbing down the stairs
> into the boat, and then paddling the boat out somewhere to throw the
> gold overboard into deep water...
Hmmm. I've always thought that such things as you describe are called
"pilot ladders" or "pilot steps", though there is no law against some
people calling them "water stairs" as well.
I don't feel too close to understanding this, yet.
John.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:05:42 GMT
From: email address (Dr Jeremy Walton. <phone number>)
Subject: MV111: Re: MV106: Stairs and Day Jobs
> >A different path from PA, who appeared to >have just stopped
> >releasing records while still at the height of his >powers (and got
> >himself a steady day job as well).
>
> Oh aye? What's his day job?
He's a freelance radio producer, and has done some work for BBC Radio
Bristol (I think).
> On the subject of stairs, am I right in thinking that part of 'Payday
> Evening' goes '...and the gardens of their heyday in Versailles / and
> Pompadour's theatre and the stairs'? What stairs might these be?
I always heard that lyric as the "theatre in the stairs" (which is what
the web page has it as - see http://www.rwt.co.uk/d12.htm). This always
struck me as impossibly exotic (the idea of having a whole theatre under
the stairs!), but when I've visited Versailles, I've never been able to
find such a thing. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting it, but I like the
picture in my head anyway.
Re: the lyrics / tune dichotomy: my favourite quote is from Frank Zappa:
"Lyrics are just a trick to get you to listen to music".
Cheers,
Jeremy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:23:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Richard Gibson <email address>
Subject: MV112: Re: MV104: A modest proposal
David,
your proposal for exposing America (or at least the part that appreciates the
Public Broadcasting Systems -PBS- television service) is not that much of a
fantasy. You didn't mention Austin City Limits as a future showcase. I
think PA' would fit their style perfectly, especially after seeing an
excellent Leo Kotke (spelling?) set recently on the programme.
I would also suggest National Public Radio -NPR- as an avenue for sharing our
passion for PA. I believe they are very accessible and would respond to an
solicited offer of a taped interview with PA and Steve and CJ and .... plus
examples of the music. We could even use the fact that we like minded souls
have all found a common bond on the web as a hook to catch NPR's interest.
From the NPR I listen to there is a big interest in the British music recent
heritage and in creative musical styles. How about starting a campaign?
To All,
I have recently found this forum after 22 years of enjoying PA and CJ's work.
Fortunately, I've had several albums and the cassette that have lated the
years, but it saddened me that, on a recent trip to London and a visit to
Notting Hill Record & Tape Exchange, upon asking whether they had a copy of
the CD "Touch has a memory" I was directed to the bargain basement. Alas, no
luck, but at least they had heard of PA, I was tiring of store after store
not even recognising the name.
There's not much talk of CJ. I gained a new appreciation for his work after
reading his three volumes of memoirs. The description of his time at
university and the desire to be a poet reminded me greatly of lyrics I had
heard from PA. I can easily imagine CJ's fantasies working overtime as he
lived "Girl on a Train." I am sorry he stopped his autobiograhies when he
did. I expect his rise to fame and association with PA would make
fascinating reading.
I have noted others sharing their musical tastes and see many familiar names.
It was great to see PA pull Shawn Colvin out of his list, I believe she is a
talented, but underrated musician. My own list is eclectic to say the least
and too long to really make much sense. However, I would offer up Tim
Buckley as a songwriter of passion and interest and a Californian Bluegrass
band - Dan Hicks and his Hot Licks - as a band that can put emotion in an
easily enjoyed song.
Enough for now, more later.
Regards
Richard Gibson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:34:24 GMT
From: email address (Dr Jeremy Walton. <phone number>)
Subject: MV113: Re: MV112: Re: MV104: A modest proposal
>> >There's not much talk of CJ. I gained a new appreciation for his work after
>> >reading his three volumes of memoirs. The description of his time at
>> >university and the desire to be a poet reminded me greatly of lyrics I had
>> >heard from PA. I can easily imagine CJ's fantasies working overtime as he
>> >lived "Girl on a Train." I am sorry he stopped his autobiograhies when he
>> >did. I expect his rise to fame and association with PA would make
>> >fascinating reading.
I think he plans to continue the autobiography, since (according to the
blurb on his latest novel) it's the thing he's best known (sic) for. I
have everything he's ever written in paperback, and would also recommend
his literary criticism for its breadth of learning. In addition, I
enjoyed his first novel ("Brilliant Creatures") very much, but think his
collected TV criticism has to be one of the best collection of humorous
writing ever. There's a description of a Demis Roussos show that still
has me laughing out loud, even after all these years. Don't know how
well it travels abroad, however.
Cheers,
Jeremy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:33:59 PDT
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV114 Re: MV112;104: A modest proposal
>David,
>your proposal for exposing America (or at least the part that appreciates the
>Public Broadcasting Systems -PBS- television service) is not that much of a
>fantasy. You didn't mention Austin City Limits as a future showcase. I
>think PA' would fit their style perfectly, especially after seeing an
>excellent Leo Kotke (spelling?) set recently on the programme.
>
I thought of Austin City Limits - for our non-expat friends its a
concert format
show recorded in Austin, Texas, and has broadened out from its original
base of Country & Western. They showcased a 60-something John Mayall
earlier this year. While some of Pete's material would fit, it didn't really strike
me as being a likely venue. The artists appearing still tend to be of the
American traditions: blues, C&W, bluegrass and various crossovers.
>I would also suggest National Public Radio -NPR- as an avenue for sharing our
>passion for PA.
>
I can just see (I mean hear) Pete doing an "Interview in Concert" for Terry Gross
on "Fresh Air" (nightly Arts, Lit & Social Issues show produced in Philadelphia,
for our friends back home). The CJ connection would be a great hook - even
after the execrable 'Fame' his name carries weight.
A couple of years ago, NPR did a feature on Moondog - remember him? I actually
found a CD compilation of both his CBS albums for 10 bucks. It turns out he went
to do his street-corner music thing in Hamburg.
>
>There's not much talk of CJ. I gained a new appreciation for his work after
>reading his three volumes of memoirs. The description of his time at
>university and the desire to be a poet reminded me greatly of lyrics I had
>heard from PA. I can easily imagine CJ's fantasies working overtime as he
>lived "Girl on a Train." I am sorry he stopped his autobiograhies when he
>did. I expect his rise to fame and association with PA would make
>fascinating reading.
>
As Clive noted, the nearer he got to present time, the less easy it became
to write about the people around him, because they are still around him.
He really had to wear the kid gloves writing about Germaine Greer, and even
then he restricted himself to the 'when we were young and foolish' stuff.
Maybe he's writing something now to be published in a decade or so - that
would be better than writing it later. Writers seem to turn into
pontificating bores
after age 65.
Dave J.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:27:40 PDT
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV115 Re: MV113;112;104: A modest proposal
>>> >There's not much talk of CJ. I gained a new appreciation for his work
>
>In addition, I
>enjoyed his first novel ("Brilliant Creatures") very much, but think his
>collected TV criticism has to be one of the best collection of humorous
>writing ever. There's a description of a Demis Roussos show that still
>has me laughing out loud, even after all these years. Don't know how
>well it travels abroad, however.
The cover blurb for 'Unreliable Memoirs' vol 1 carries a comment
to the effect that the book should come with a health warning, since
you're likely to burst into spasms of uncontrolled laughter, especially
in public.
Can't say I took to vol 2., but vol 3 more than made up for it.
Dave J.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:26:44 -0400
From: Frances Kemmish <email address>
Subject: MV116: The list itself
Is anyone else having trouble reading and following conversations on the
list? Double, triple, even quadruple quotes now make it really difficult
to follow who said what.
Steve, is there some philosophical reason for not using a standard
mailing list program, or is it a practical or financial one? Cutting out
that first forwarding of messages would at least remove one generation
of quote marks.
Just a thought.
Fran
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:08:22 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV117 Re: MV116: The list itself
Fran,
I think the only strong reason for not using an automatic list program is
the fear of chaos induced by all things which "have a mind of their own".
In too many spheres we find ourselves fighting against the machine, a
machine which doesn't understand the subtleties of human communication or
preference and simply doesn't do what we think we're telling it to do. I
understand that the type of program you refer to can be most frustrating
for its users, particularly when the less computer-familiar make some small
error in message formatting, or where a message bounces and gets re-sent to
the entire group, and so on. I've also had the concern expressed by more
than one of our 81 users that, since list servers are open to anyone, their
e-mail addresses will be bombarded with "spam". Some have bitter experience
of this, and seem to dread large numbers of e-mail messages. Personally
I've had no prior dealings with lists, but I feel it's my duty to shield MV
members from such concerns, and provide an intelligent direction to the
operation, however clumsy it may look to the cyber-sophisticated.
The Web site uses the same philosophy: the information is presented
straight, with the routing all all links clear and obvious, unlike some of
the more sophisticated, showy and "cool" places on the Web.
The reason for the first generation of "quotes" is the fact that messages
are "forwarded" through a separate e-mail program here, rather than
"redirected". I found that redirection confused some users with early
versions of CompuServe mail software, resulting in their seeing only
headers. To do it otherwise would require a "cut and paste" operation on
every message. Forwarding also means that when posting I can adopt a peer
position among other members rather than issuing ex cathedra messages from
MV itself.
The weak reasons are that (1) I am not familiar with the selection,
operation or installation of such programs, which I believe require
interface with the ISP, setting file permissions and so on, which, if
changed, would affect direction of existing e-mail to my family and
business; (2) I am very busy running my own electronics design company, and
cannot spare the time to learn (often necessarily by trial and error) a
great many things that are no doubt quite familiar to Internet
professionals and amateurs alike -- it is easier and more satisfying to
devote an hour per day, as a "labour of love" to servicing this exclusive
"fan club", while ever such effort is appreciated; (3) I believe (I may be
wrong -- I haven't enquired in detail due to reason 2) that dial-up ISPs
require an extra subscription to host private mailing lists. Hosting the
Web site on spare capacity is one thing, but I can hardly demand payment
from MV members. So not very practical or very financial reasons, just weak
ones on account of my necessarily limited dedication to the cause.
Are you (or is anyone with lots of time, and/or their own access to
Internet servers) offering to take over the running of MV? I'm not seeking
to give it up, but I do take to heart every complaint I receive (or
perceive), and I do try very hard to please everyone. We'd need to poll
members before switching to an automated list, as it contradicts the stated
philosophy, but they may be happy enough ...
Meantime, referring to messages by number could avoid long quoted passages,
and a FAQ might be helpful (yes, it's on my list to do) -- some of the
questions coming through suggest their authors haven't explored the Web
site, or even read earlier messages.
Best Regards
Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 14:35:34 +0100
From: gerald smith <email address>
Subject: MV118 Re: MV 116/7 : Automated or hand made list handling
Hello Everyone
I'm all in favour of anything which retains a vestige of the human touch.
Steve is right, automated systems do seem to have a mind of their own (my PC
included !) and speaking from the experience of having been on a couple of
automated lists, yes, my junk mail quadrupled.
I think there's another reason for keeping the list the way it is though.
The group itself is quite 'intimate' and most members, as we have seen from
the many introductions have quite a lot in common, sociologically,
musically, and other ways too. We are not dealing with the 'Oasis' fan club
here, or anything of that ilk, to which an automated mailing system together
with the inevitable links to vacuous and banal 'cool sites' would be most
appropriate.
I seem to remember being mailed by Steve when this list was being set up,
because I had previously visited the website. It was said that the list
would get off the ground if and when 10 members could be elicited. I
understand that the current membership is 81, an amazing response
considering how much time has passed since Pete was releasing records,
appearing on TV or doing larger gigs. I therefore think that the 'closed
group for free discussion' formula is far more in line with the nature of
the group.
Going off at a slight tangent here, how will members recognise each other at
gigs? Should we wear a false moustache and metal rimmed glasses? Or carry
some other form of ID as do members of those activity clubs for single
people which pretend not to be introduction agencies. Ideas on a postcard!
Best Wishes
Gerry Smith
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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