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Web Digest week 48 (26.07.98, MV1300-1315) begins | index | prev | next | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:23:26 +0000 From: Stephen Payne <email address> Subject: MV1300 Re MV 1299: Remembering to be expected I know for sure I'm not the only one to be grateful for this latest offering, but thanks Pete (and Steve) for yet more hours of pain and pleasure. Smash Flops and Midinight Voices really are the best things since, well, since I discovered Pete's records in the first place.... S PS I liked Ian's song of the week - or was it month? - idea. I miss all that erudition we used to get about lyrics from Mel and Dave and others. ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:30:40 +0100 From: S J Birkill <email address> Subject: MV1301: More Chords! Sunlight Gate - http://www.rwt.co.uk/b1c.htm Pearl-Driller - http://www.rwt.co.uk/b2c.htm "Enjoy!"! Also... you may not have noticed while browsing the Website, but the entire discography is still available as a single (long) page at http://www.rwt.co.uk/disworks.htm -- Steve ============================================================================== From: Cary <email address> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:09:30 +0000 Subject: MV1302: Major Domo I know I'm going to regret asking this question as soon as the answer comes in and is blindinly obvious ..... In many of the committee's of the Cambridge Footlights there is the post of Major Domo - what does this mean? Any relationship to the Majordomo list serves? And what *does* the Falconer do? Hoping someone can enlighten me - gently please if it is something I should have known. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ROCK FOLLIES - The Classic 1970's TV Drama starring Julie Covington, Charlotte Cornwell and Rula Lenska. Online at:- http://members.xoom.com/Follies Pictures,sounds and much more (unofficial site) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Regards - Cary (like Mary with a 'C' for cat) ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 03:10:53 +0100 From: Gerald Smith <email address> Subject: MV1303: sunlight gate Hello All, musicians amongst us, especially Just to say, wot a joy it is to finally be able to sit down and play 'Sunlight Gate', one of my most favourite PA numbers. The chords to this song have confounded me for years and years - although, they become plain as day set out in front of me at the piano. In five minutes after downloading my mail tonight, I've managed to play a song, the chords for which have eluded me since the year dot, despite a five minute coaching (without pen and paper handy) from Pete in person, after his gig at Islington, last October. I seem to remember, Pete said in a mail to MV some time ago that the harmony of his songs was derived from the melody ( as opposed to most popular culture numbers which derive a melody from a fixed underlying chord structures). This song just goes to prove it. The 'pedal' D with the shifting chords over the top in the introduction, in retrospect, I couldn't hear correctly because of the brass parts (on the album) and the remainder throws away the rule book. The characteristic and oft mentioned tritone makes several appearances too (this isn't a treatise, so no elaboration here (Zzzzz). Anyway, to save much wittering, thanks for these chords, and look forward to the 5th of August at Eastbourne. Best to all Gerry smith PS Pete - any chance of a rendition of SG at Eastbourne, or, if not, Buxton? Gerald Smith's Homepage : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/gerald.smith/index.htm ============================================================================== From: Dave Jones <email address> Subject: MV1304 RE: MV1299: Remembering to be Expected Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:18:39 -0400 [corrected - see MV1306] Hi All, Going over Pete's chords for "You can't expect to be remembered" I tried to match the chord names with the particular fingerings I had already worked out for some of the song, and it occurred to me that some would be scratching their heads at progressions like "C A7 Dm11 Gaug". Depending on your experience with the guitar and your source for chord shapes this could give you hand cramps and still not sound right. If I may add my tuppenceworth, what I have found is that Pete favors familiar chords with a note or two sharpened or flattened for seasoning. Thus these chords are relatively easy fingerings, it's just the names that are confusing. C you know. A7 is not the folk-club key-of-D version, but A with the G string left open. Move to it from C by lifting the first finger off the B string and bringing the third finger to the B string at the second fret. What I had worked out after that consists of moving your fingers up one fret on the same strings and adding the first finger on the G string at A. I'll let the chord mavens argue about what to call that one. Dm(9) ? Dm11 would have to have a G in it as well as a C. I'd be tempted to add them on the two bass strings at fret 3 or just leave them out altogether. The next one had given me some trouble. I only knew it was G-something. If I read Gaug correctly as "G with sharpened fifth", then it could be as simple as G on the top E string, D# on the B string. You can leave the G string open or play B on it, as far as I'm concerned. To make it a five-string chord you can reach over and make a D at the fifth fret on the A string. That leaves you with two strings playing the same note, which is often nice, especially in the treble. There are other possibilities for the middle strings, but I'll leave it at that. Likewise Bb A7+ A7 Dm later in the song sounds daunting, but the A7+ is just the A7 described above, plus your first finger making F on the top E string. The relationship of that chord to a straightforward Bb is obvious, and the pull-off to A7 followed by the transition to a conventional Dm is no trouble at all. I will raise one quibble: there is audibly and necessarily an E or E7 needed to lead into Am for the bridge of the song ("You'll be there...."). G7 won't do for me. I hope this all hasn't been too boring for the non-guitarists. I just wanted to point out how accessible Pete's style really is. As Einstein almost said, he is subtle, but he is not malicious. Dave Jones Stacking notes in Rochester NY. ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:38:39 +0100 From: S J Birkill <email address> Subject: MV1305: 'Together At Last' interview MV member and one-time BBC Radio Cleveland DJ Graeme Aldous has transcribed for us his own interview with Pete and Clive, on the occasion of their 'Together At Last' tour gig at Middlesbrough Town Hall in November 1975. Read it at http://www.rwt.co.uk/rcleveld.htm ============================================================================== From: Steve Birkill <email address> Subject: MV1306: Apology to Dave Jones Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 Somehow, while 'topping and tailing' Dave's message MV1304, I inadvertently deleted a couple of words. I put them back as I thought they'd been, but made an error which subtly changed Dave's meaning, making the comment sound flippant, which he hadn't intended. The sentence "I'll bet the chord mavens argue about what to call that one." should read "I'll let the chord mavens argue about what to call that one." Sorry Dave! Here follows the full message, with the correction in place: _____________________________________ From: Dave Jones <email address> Subject: RE: MV1299: Remembering to be Expected Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:18:39 -0400 Hi All, Going over Pete's chords for "You can't expect to be remembered" I tried to match the chord names with the particular fingerings I had already worked out for some of the song, and it occurred to me that some would be scratching their heads at progressions like "C A7 Dm11 Gaug". Depending on your experience with the guitar and your source for chord shapes this could give you hand cramps and still not sound right. If I may add my tuppenceworth, what I have found is that Pete favors familiar chords with a note or two sharpened or flattened for seasoning. Thus these chords are relatively easy fingerings, it's just the names that are confusing. C you know. A7 is not the folk-club key-of-D version, but A with the G string left open. Move to it from C by lifting the first finger off the B string and bringing the third finger to the B string at the second fret. What I had worked out after that consists of moving your fingers up one fret on the same strings and adding the first finger on the G string at A. I'll let the chord mavens argue about what to call that one. Dm(9) ? Dm11 would have to have a G in it as well as a C. I'd be tempted to add them on the two bass strings at fret 3 or just leave them out altogether. The next one had given me some trouble. I only knew it was G-something. If I read Gaug correctly as "G with sharpened fifth", then it could be as simple as G on the top E string, D# on the B string. You can leave the G string open or play B on it, as far as I'm concerned. To make it a five-string chord you can reach over and make a D at the fifth fret on the A string. That leaves you with two strings playing the same note, which is often nice, especially in the treble. There are other possibilities for the middle strings, but I'll leave it at that. Likewise Bb A7+ A7 Dm later in the song sounds daunting, but the A7+ is just the A7 described above, plus your first finger making F on the top E string. The relationship of that chord to a straightforward Bb is obvious, and the pull-off to A7 followed by the transition to a conventional Dm is no trouble at all. I will raise one quibble: there is audibly and necessarily an E or E7 needed to lead into Am for the bridge of the song ("You'll be there...."). G7 won't do for me. I hope this all hasn't been too boring for the non-guitarists. I just wanted to point out how accessible Pete's style really is. As Einstein almost said, he is subtle, but he is not malicious. Dave Jones Stacking notes in Rochester NY. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:35:51 +0100 From: S J Birkill <email address> Subject: MV1307 Re: MV1306 Apology Re: MV1304; MV1299: Remembering to be Expected Afterthought on my last message: I didn't go into detail on how I managed to garble Dave Jones' message, because I didn't want to bore anyone with technicalities. But some of you must inevitably be wondering whether, since by the way in which I choose to operate MV I have manual input to the process, I habitually 'edit' or 'doctor' members' posts. So this is to reassure you I don't! Except for a mistake like tonight's, I don't change the content of any message passing through. The closest I get is when some members quote the whole of the post being replied to, resulting in something like: In message <blahblahblahblah@email.address> Midnight Voices <email address> wrote: > > > [Quotation of entire message and sig, with consequent wrapping of sig.] > >=========================================================================== === > The Pete Atkin e-mail Discussion Group > Midnight Voices <midnight.voices@email.address> >=========================================================================== === > before their comments begin. In these cases, unless the quoted message is very old, I generally make sure the original is referred to in the 'Subject' line (e.g. 'Re: MV1306') and delete the quotation part before forwarding to MV. Short quotes I leave in place as they help readers follow the thread. Quotes of intermediate length I occasionally shorten, with a [snip] comment inserted to indicate this. Square brackets [ ] indicate my input. Otherwise all I do is strip off the message header block, leaving only the 'From', 'Subject' and 'Date' lines, add a separator line at the top and sig at the bottom, and remove extraneous carriage returns. This latter is where I slipped up with Dave's message. Some e-mail programs send text in strings without carriage return characters at the end of each line, only at paragraph breaks. But most send CRs at the end of each line. This is fine where the message's line length matches or is shorter than that of the Eudora I use here. But if it's longer, Eudora inserts its own CR just a word or two before the original, giving the unfortunate effect I've simulated so far in this paragraph. This often happens with quoted text, as the quote character (>) and space lengthen a line that was originally the correct length, to the point where the extra wrap occurs. Others only insert a single CR at a paragraph break, resulting in paragraphs with no spaces between them. Just recently I've begun to expand these, again to make them more readable. All of these operations take only a matter of seconds with most messages passing through, and I haven't felt the need to automate them, for instance by exporting the mail prog's text into a word processor and running a macro, then shuffling it back into the mail system. It would in any case take a degree of diligence for me to be satisfied that nothing had been altered or lost in the process, or layout ruined, in messages from all the flavours of mailer which our members use. So, Dave's message this time being of the 'long line before CR' type (though sometimes he sends short lines -- see MV1293), I removed his CRs manually. But my hand slipped and I wiped out a couple of words too. I immediately put them back according to my visual memory of them, but I got one letter wrong. And I'm full of sympathy -- I too know how it hurts, as I said to Dave, when some fool sub-editor converts your carefully-considered prose into journalistic drivel. Now you may ask what do I do if I think someone has made an error of tact (OK, a serious error of tact) or judgement? I mail them and politely suggest a rephrasing or change of emphasis. Well, I would, if it ever happened ... What has happened is that members have sent a post they immediately realised was unfinished, or contained errors. In those cases they have e-mailed me direct to that effect, and I have held back the offending post. The only other intervention I make is in cases where the sender chooses to withhold his e-mail address. This is the case with Pete and Clive, and is another advantage of manual processing. Enough explanation of the rude mechanicals, I think. I'll be more careful. -- Steve ============================================================================== From: Dave Jones <email address> Subject: MV1308 RE: MV1302: Major Domo Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:10:39 -0400 Since the classicists haven't responded to Cary's enquiry yet, I'll throw in a scientist's interpretation. The word 'majordomo' in my dictionary is defined as a head steward or butler. The post would have been at the head of staff of a household (that's the 'domo' part). These days a Majordomo might be the guy in charge of seating in a restaurant, or anybody who is a factotum, organiser, or head cook and bottlewasher. In Footlights terms the Major Domo could be the Stage Manager, the Producer, or the Secretary etc. Probably the person did all the fiddly details so that the rest could be creative, get drunk, impersonate Noel Coward etc. (a feature of early 70s Footlights, according to Douglas Adams). In terms of mailing lists, majordomo is this nice software robot that takes care of all the fiddly details so the owner of the mailing list can be creative, get drunk, impersonate Jerry Garcia etc. Dave Jones Gratefully alive in Rochester NY. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:27:27 +0100 From: S J Birkill <email address> Subject: MV1309 Re: MV1308; MV1302: Major Domo and the Falconer Pete Atkin adds: Major Domo was a pretty much meaningless title for one of the Footlights committee members, rather than have anything quite so baldly and overtly functionless as a mere committee member. I've no idea how far back it dates. Do they still have it, I wonder (but not often or much). Same goes for Falconer, though we did invent that in my time specifically for Rob Buckman as committee member (derived as a - how you say? - jeu d'esprit (i.e. feeble joke) from Falcon Yard where the clubroom used to be - not just that the clubroom isn't there any more, Falcon Yard isn't there any more, destroyed in one of the worst pieces of urban vandalism committed by any town or city anywhere in the country). -- Steve ============================================================================== From: B & J Cotterill <email address> Subject: MV1310 re 1304.1306 & 1307 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:27:31 +0100 Hi All With reference to Dave Jones' explanations about chords and fingerings, as an almost non-guitarist I was lost after the third paragraph,but it wasn't boring at all, Dave. I thought about dragging the piano nearer to the computer, but decided against it; carried on reading and just let the words waft over me :-). And to think I remember when the dominant 7th at the end of She Loves You was the most exciting chord I'd ever heard! Steve: your apology and afterthought were fascinating. When I read that you had inadvertantly edited out a couple of words from MV 1304, I thought "does he do this all the time?" So I was relieved to read your afterthought and amazed at how complex it all is. regards Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:54:07 -0400 From: Mike Welbrock <email address> Subject: MV1311 Re: 1304; MV1299: Remembering to be Expected Dave The one chord I didn't know in this progression is Dm11, why did you leave it out? Mike Welbrock Fumbling notes in Wimbledon, UK ============================================================================== From: Dave Jones <email address> Subject: MV1312 RE: MV1311; MV1304; MV1299: Remembering to be Expected Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:51:08 -0400 >The one chord I didn't know in this progression >is Dm11, why did you leave it out? >Mike Welbrock >Fumbling notes in Wimbledon, UK Sorry Mike, the point I was trying to get across was that I play a particular chord at that point in the song which may or may not be classifiable as Dm11, or indeed correspond to what Pete had in mind. It sounds right to me, and that's what I'm going with. It consists of the notes F, A, D and E (playing only the top strings in semi-arpeggio style). F,A,D is an inversion of Dm and E is the 9th of D, so Dm(9) seemed like a good name. Strictly Dm11 would be D, F, A, C, E and G. You could add C to my chord on the A string and G on the top E, but then you'd lose the nice dissonance between D and E. You'd also have one of those "five strings, four fingers" situations which result in squashing one finger across two strings. Shall I expound on chords ? Why not. In the Western musical tradition we make chords by stacking alternate notes in a scale. The easiest way to see this is to look at a piano keyboard, starting with G. Call this 1, then add 3 (B) and 5 (D) for the chord of G major. Add 7 (F) for G7, 9 (A) for G9, and 11 (C) for G11. All white notes, you notice, and if you take the top three and move them down an octave you would be hitting every key from F through D simultaneously. Just like slamming your hand across all those keys. Sounds awful, but when the notes are spread out it sounds interesting. Notice also that G11 is like playing the chords of G major and F major at the same time. You can go on to G13 (add E) etc. etc. Not only is this less common, for guitarists it's perverse because there are seven or more notes and only six strings to play them on. The minor chords are the same but the 3 note is flattened. A maj7 chord is a 7 chord with the 7 sharpened. A '+' or 'aug' chord is the basic 1,3,5 with the 5 sharpened, just as a 'dim' chord is 1,3,5 with 5 flattened. For a 'sus4' (suspended fourth), sharpen the 3 of a major chord. And so on. As a notation this has severe limitations, hence all the doubt about what to call a chord, and the appearance of oddballs like Fmin(maj7) in "You can't expect to be remembered". I called for A7sus4 in "Wristwatch", which Pete would probably have called A11 (see "Sunlight Gate"). In the end it's the sound that counts. Dave Jones Playing by ear in Rochester NY. ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:04:44 +0100 From: Lesley Hodges <email address> Subject: MV1313 Re: MV1309; MV1308; MV1302: Major Domo and the Falconer Midnight Voices wrote: > > from Falcon Yard where the clubroom used to be - not > just that the clubroom isn't there any more, Falcon Yard isn't there any > more, destroyed in one of the worst pieces of urban vandalism committed by > any town or city anywhere in the country). Where was Falcon Yard? I have forgotten. Lesley ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:42:02 +0100 From: S J Birkill <email address> Subject: MV1314 Re: MV1313; MV1309; MV1308; MV1302: Major Domo and the Falconer > >Where was Falcon Yard? I have forgotten. Lesley > There are some descriptions of old Cambridge locations on the Web: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/ckh/camdoc.html http://www.anglia.ac.uk/~systimk/History/Cam/Lion-Yard.Html http://www.anglia.ac.uk/~systimk/History/Cam/Footlights.Html Couldn't find a map though... Steve ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 17:24:20 +0100 From: S J Birkill <email address> Subject: MV1315: Eastbourne - a reminder Just in case anyone's been off the planet for the past few weeks, or hasn't checked the Web site, I'm reminding you all of the fact that Pete will be playing the Eastbourne Folk Club on Wednesday this coming week, August 5th. The venue is the upstairs front room of the Crown public house in Crown Street, which lies in the fork between the junction of the A259 and A22 to the north-west of Eastbourne town centre. From the centre (it's not far) stay with the A22 Upperton Road (right fork) at the junction and then turn left in 400 yds into New Upperton Road (the third or fourth left turn), or if you miss that, Watts Lane or Prospect Gdns will also bring you into Crown Street. The club normally starts at 8.30, and it's a pay-at-the-door operation. I've no idea how many MVs will be there but quite a few have mentioned their intention, so you're advised to get there early - the room will fill up, and you can't see much from the stairs or hear much from the downstairs bar, though the street outside could sustain an overflow if the weather's fine! There's a couple of Web links for the club and the venue from Smash Flops: http://www.brighton.co.uk/listings/folk/folk1.htm#eastbourne (with Phone Nos) http://www.pavilion.co.uk/veastbourne/catering/crown.html This is Pete's warm-up for Buxton and he might be trying something new! Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Web Digest week 48 (26.07.98, MV1300-1315) ends | index | prev | next |Pete Atkin Home | Discography | Julie Covington | Audio Clips | Visitors' Comments | Join Midnight VoicesThe discussion forum for fans of Pete Atkin and Clive James, their works and collaborators on stage, TV, disc and in print.Midnight VoicesMidnight Voices, the Pete Atkin and Julie Covington Websites are operated and maintained by Steve Birkill
