Midnight Voices                      
The discussion forum for fans of Pete Atkin and Clive James,
their works and collaborators on stage, TV, disc and in print.

Web Digest week 14 (30.11.97, MV461 - 487) begins | index | prev | next |
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Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:16:06 +0000
From: Ian Sorensen <email address>
Subject: MV461 Re: MV445

Mike Powell's list of favourite lines was amazingly similar to my own but
for two anomalies:

1) his dislike of The Man Who Walked Toward the Music - how can anyone not
smile at "He couldn't tell a wah wah from Akira Kourasawa"?
 and
2) Including the verse ending
"As you long for the beautiful stranger
Said the vanishing beautiful stranger"
the repetition in which has jarred with me on every hearing.


Could I also thank Gerald Smith for his erudite explanation of Pete's chord
structure in Lady of a Day - it all makes sense once the concept of a whole
tone scale is explained to us humble pub pianists!


Ian Sorensen

==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:03:16 -0500 (EST)
From: IChippett<email address>
Subject: MV462: Flowers and wine

Reading the translation of "El Desdichado" I was struck by the lines:
     "The flower which pleased my bleeding heart so much
       And the trellised vine where the Vine branch allies the rose"
Was there a third song inspired by this weird poem? And can we translate the
title as "The Ruined Man" or "The Wrecked Man" in which case maybe there are
other resonances? Or am I (more probably) seeing things?

I take back all I said about Pete's musical subtlety being too much for the
public and thus causing his relative lack of fame. When I read his bio on the
Website, the scales fell from my eyes. No serious drug or alcohol problems,
name never linked with contemporary starlets, no mysterious death in hotel
bedroom, no controversial statements e.g. "I'm more popular than Jesus".
You'll never get to the top like that, Pete. 

I think the problem with "The Man who walked toward the Music" is the
repetition of the words of the B and C sections. It's rare that Pete and
Clive repeat themselves in a song unlike almost all their less-inspired
fellows. 

Can we have a discussion of one of my favourites, "My Egoist"? Has any one
else noticed how clever the rhyme scheme is? Not to mention the music.

==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 09:19:30 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV463: Overseas orders (Re MV458; MV455)

As David points out, the cost of processing a dollar check will at best
wipe out Monyash's profits on that sale. Ian Chippett (Paris, private
communication) expresses the same concern re French Francs. And there's the
issue of overseas postage, as raised (privately again) by Ramsey Margolis
(New Zealand): air mail despatch will also cost us extra. While we could
choose to be relaxed about this and accept the downs with the ups, I think
we ought to tackle the issue.

Let's say that the quoted prices include first class letter postage to UK
destinations or regular air mail to EU destinations, but only surface mail
to locations outside Europe. Please add UKP 1.50 extra per consignment (VT
or CD) for air mail (small packet) delivery to non-European countries. That
should keep it simple.

Regarding payment, since Monyash Fest doesn't have credit card sales
facilities the approved method is to request a Foreign Draft (or Sterling
Draft) from your bank. This is effectively a check, made out to Monyash
Festival for the appropriate amount in pounds, and drawn on a UK bank; any
bank doing international business will issue one, for a (more or less)
nominal fee. You then send the draft to us with your order.

Steve

==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:30:02 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
Subject: MV464 Re: MV462: Flowers and wine

Hi Ian,

>> Can we have a discussion of one of my favourites, "My Egoist"? Has any one
>> else noticed how clever the rhyme scheme is? Not to mention the music.

Well, yes - I think it's one of my favourites as well.  In fact, I think
the "slow" songs off TROS - i.e. more or less every other one, in that
rather irritatingly obvious slow-fast-slow programming that the album
features - are one of the finest collections of songs I've ever heard;
right up there with most of Steely Dan's "Aja".  However, I'm blessed if
I know what it's "about" - or, indeed, whether I really care, since the
thing that comes over best is the vagueness of the melancholia.  And the
butterflies of night, of course.

Cheers,

Jeremy

==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:03:22 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV465 RE: MV459; MV456: Ouch!

----------
From: Midnight Voices
To: David L Jones<email address>
Subject: MV459 Re: MV456: Ouch!
Date: Friday, November 28, 1997 5:15PM

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:59:12 -0500
From: Frances Kemmish <email address>
To: Midnight Voices <email address>
Subject: Re: MV456: Ouch!

> Quote of the week: "This is lovely music" - my 6-year-old son, on hearing
> "Master of the Revels".
> 

I played this song for an American friend. He said, "Is this some kind
of Barney music?". Some people just have no taste!

For those of you spared the Barney phenomenon, it is a purple
dinosaur(TV variety, of such saccharine sweetness, that anyone over the
age of two is reduced to nausea by his appearance.

Fran

=================================================================

Yeah, I can see that.  The Barney theme song is an oompah-and-piccolos
version of "Yankee Doodle". The intro to MOTR would confuse the 
unsophisticated in this respect.

Dave J.

==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 21:54:29 -0800
From: m.powell<email address>
Subject: MV466: The Prince of Aquitaine

The Prince of Aquitaine

Hello David Jones, I Chippett and anyone else who has been following the
El Desdichado debate.  Trying to impose some order on the bookshelves
over the weekend, I found an edition of Gerard de Nerval we'd forgotten
we had, with a biography and some annotations which shed a bit of light
on the poem, but not as much as they should.

You may remember a Romantic poet who had a pet lobster he took for walks
on a pale blue ribbon and when asked why he did this, replied that he
preferred lobsters to dogs or cats because they were quiet, and,
moreover, they knew the secrets of the deep.  That was de Nerval.  What
I didn't know was that this and many other idiosyncrasies had less to do
with Wildean flamboyance than with a disorder for which he was
repeatedly detained in a mental hospital.  Eventually he committed
suicide by hanging himself with an apron string which he insisted was
the Queen of Sheba's garter.

His emotional life was equally colourful.  He had a number of Muses, but
the main one was Jenny Colon, a not-particularly-good singer. She
inspired several of his prose works, and he put lot of time and effort
into trying to advance her career, without much success.  He put an
equal amount of effort into trying to get her into bed, with even less
success.  The enormous Renaissance bed he bought for the purpose caused
him housing problems for the rest of his life because he could seldom
afford lodgings large enough to put it in.

Jenny Colon tired of him as soon as the publicity value of an enslaved
poet ran out and married a flute player instead, but de Nerval was still
devastated by her death several years later.

According to a note by S A Rhodes in my edition, that's what El
Desdichado is about:  it's full of references to his personal life
elevated to a mythic status.  He describes himself as 'the widower'
because of the death of Jenny, 'my only star'.  De Nerval also styled
himself 'the Prince of Aquitania' because he imagined he was descended
from the Labrunie family, whose ruined castle stood on the banks of the
Dordogne.  He noted on the family tree he drew that "brunn or broun
means tower", and was probably aware of the significance of the ruined
tower in the Tarot as a symbol of physical and spiritual destruction. 
The 'Luth' of the quoted Internet translation makes more sense as
'lute':  it is the symbol of his artistic creativity, starry because
inspired by Jenny and bearing a black sun because he is in mourning for
her.  The rest of the poem is full of equally obscure references to the
other women in his life, (including the Italian visit and the saint in
the final line.) 

This was a lot of fun to find out, but doesn't add very much to our
understanding of what the Prince is doing in Clive James's work.   I
think it has more to do with the significance the line has acquired in
English literature since its appearance (where else?) in the words of
T.S. Eliot.

"Le Prince d'Aquitaine a la tour abolie" is also line 429 of The Waste
Land, where it forms part of the final section of the poem V.What the
Thunder Said.  It occurs in a sequence of fragmentary quotations in
several different languages intended to suggest the collapse of
civilisation, which also includes "London Bridge is falling down".

I think that a number of The Waste Land's references are helpful in
understanding Clive James' use of The Prince.   It's interesting to note
that whilst my edition translates the line as "The Prince of Aquitaine
whose tower has been torn down", the Internet source David Jones quoted,
in common with many English translations, reads it as "The Prince of
Aquitaine *come* to the ruined tower", hence Clive's translation.  I
think this may be through an analogy with a line most English readers
know better:  "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came", a line from
Edgar's song in King Lear which inspired and provided the title for a
poem by Robert Browning.

Browning's poem narrates a final quest to find the Dark Tower by the
last of a band of knights whose comrades have all perished in the
attempt.  The journey takes him through a barren land scattered with
instruments of torture, the tower itself is squat, ugly and nondescript,
and as he reaches it, he sees and hears all his dead comrades and knows
he too is about to die. But he blows one last blast on his horn to
celebrate his arrival because (a favourite theme of Browning's) the
journey and the attempt itself was what was important.

The description of the journey recalls the quest for the Holy Grail at
the Chapel Perilous in Arthurian legend, which Eliot also alludes to in
the final section of The Waste Land.  And Clive also alludes to a quest
in the penultimate line of the song:  "So I know now that my quest was
not in vain."

So - the Prince of Acquitaine is one of today's knights errant, an
international traveller of high status.  (This isn't so far fetched when
you consider that in medieval literature, being on horseback was such a
status symbol that you usually started a song by saying "As I rode out"
to establish your knightly status, only to add later that you were
actually walking. How else is air travel sold to us today?)  

Having seen London by night as picked out by gems rather than paved with
gold (reminding us that this view is afforded only to the relatively
wealthy) , he leaves the comfort of the (airport fore-) court and its
attendant beauties who are pictured in pre-Raphaelite terms (the golden
hair?  those maxi-coats?), he embarks on his quest to the ruined tower -
here in its Tarot significance as the physical and spiritual collapse of
an individual and of civilisation.  

He finds it 'close to the bridge's footway', reminding us of T.S.
Eliot's use of London Bridge, where he donates his duty-frees to a group
of meths drinkers.  As with Browning's Childe Roland, the quest has been
pointless:  his gesture will be at best a temporary palliative.  But as
in the poem, the quest was not in vain:  what mattered was the attempt.

What The Thunder Said concludes with the words "Datta.  Dayadhvam. 
Damyata./Shantih  shantih shantih"  (Give, sympathise, control.   The
peace which passeth all understanding.)  Are we are intended to
understand that the Prince has given and sympathised, and that he can
now hope to attain spiritual control and peace?

Mel Powell

==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 23:30:38 -0500
From: Frances Kemmish <email address>
Subject: MV467 Re: MV463: Overseas orders (Re MV458; MV455)

Steve,

I would like to order the CD and a copy of the US standard video. I am
not sure if my original expression of interest was taken to be an order
or not. 

Do we have a price yet on the video for the USA? I would prefer to order
both together, but if there will be a long delay on the video, I will
just send off a cheque for the CD. I still have a Sterling bank account,
so conversion isn't a problem.

Fran

==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:40:19 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV468 RE: MV466: The Prince of Aquitaine

>From: m.powell<email address>
>To: midnight.voices<email address>
>Subject: The Prince of Aquitaine
>
>The Prince of Aquitaine
>
>Hello David Jones, I Chippett and anyone else who has been following the
>El Desdichado debate.  Trying to impose some order on the bookshelves
>over the weekend, I found an edition of Gerard de Nerval we?d forgotten
>(etc.)

Thanks for the analysis, Mel.  I had some of these refs. from the Web:  Eliot
showed up quickly, and I read a short bio of de Nerval (in French, 25 years
after high school!).  I also took a swing at Childe, except I thought it was
Childe Harold, not Childe Roland, so a diversion took place.  Fun, though.

I wound up reading both "Childe Roland" and "The Waste Land" for the first
time in my life (I was a Science swot).  And yes, both were on the Web.

Searching for "Aquitaine" was interesting because of connections with
the English monarchy (well, the Anglo-French monarchy as was), not to
mention Nostradamus and the untimely death of a prince (king ?) while
jousting.  Not that I'm a believer in such stuff, but it suggested a basis 
for a poetic reference.

So de Nerval thought he was a Prince of Aquitaine?  Bit of an anti-climax.
He was quite disturbed, though.  The bio mentioned he lost his mother at
age 2, which is old enough to be scarred by the experince.

As for the song, I think the protagonist is smuggling in something illegal 
and delivering it to the docklands, hence the "envelope of sugar" and the
"usual thrill of fear".  I love the "pearl and diamond string" line.  Even in
sodium-lit England you see streets from the air as a mixture of pearly
glow and bright pinpoints at night.  This is another one for the annotator,
by the way: the awful yellow glow of sodium street lights is unfamiliar
to Americans, and possibly to readers from other European countries.

Dave Jones
Rochester NY.

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:39:12 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV469 Re MV467 et prae: NTSC video

Dear Fran (MV467),

Sorry if I didn't make it clear. My note of MV239 was to solicit not orders
as such, but intentions to order; these are the 'commitments' referred to
in MV455, which enabled me to assess the feasibility, scale and cost of
duplication. That's why I asked MVs not to send money on the basis of the
rough estimates of price I gave in MV239 (we might have decided not to do
any), but to wait for a further announcement. 

MV455 (as amended by MV463) stated final prices and invited the actual
orders -- sorry it took so long. In effect I had acted on your promises,
but wouldn't have regarded them as binding orders until payment had been
made. So what I need now are your cheques, final quantities (if changed)
and delivery addresses.

But of course you (Fran and others in North America) are still awaiting
NTSC videotape details. That's where Chris comes in:

Dear Chris (MV309; MV303; MV274),

Can I take up your generous offer, if it still stands, to put my PAL VHS
master through your remarkable Tekniche digit-cruncher? I have just 5 NTSC
copies requested, so perhaps we should make (say) 8, to cover
contingencies, if that doesn't tie up too much of your time (the tape runs
2h 35m). If you can do this for us for the cost of the media, we can offer
the NTSC copies at no premium.

If the answer is yes, can I ask those requiring NTSC copies to place their
orders on this basis. And please to advise a.s.a.p. if any additional
copies are needed.

It was Hannington, just outside Kingsclere, by Watership Down. End of a
long single-track farm road, splendid views. And Maurice and I were at
Emley Moor (staffed from Holme Moss) during the 70s, so we may have met there.

Cheers

Steve

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:09:17 +0000
From: Rob Spence <email address>
Subject: MV470: Digest: Midnight Voices week 13 (MV433-460) -Reply

I was reminded by a reference to the line in "Hypertension Kid" of my
driving test in about 1978. I was asked by the examiner what I should do
if the car hit some ice. My mind went blank, but I remembered the song,
and casually said, "oh, lay off the brakes and steer into the skid." I've no
idea even now if that's what you should do, but I passed my test!

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:35:58 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
Subject: MV471 Re: MV468; MV466: The Prince of Aquitaine

Hi Mel,

>> >From: m.powell<email address>
>> >To: midnight.voices<email address>
>> >Subject: The Prince of Aquitaine
>> >
>> >The Prince of Aquitaine
>> >
>> >Hello David Jones, I Chippett and anyone else who has been following the
>> >El Desdichado debate.  Trying to impose some order on the bookshelves
>> >over the weekend, I found an edition of Gerard de Nerval we?d forgotten
>> >(etc.)

Thanks for the analysis, which was interesting.  For myself, I don't
think I take the parallels between the international traveller's journey
and the quest for the dark tower so literally (hah!).  Instead, I think
of the chorus as an ironic insertion into a straightforward narrative of
coming home off a plane - somewhat similar to the gardens of the heyday
which are conjoured up in the middle of the seedy bar in "Payday
evening".  In fact, I always end up singing the song to myself as the
plane comes over London on its way back to Heathrow, looking out the
window at the pearl and diamond strings.  

Following your account however (and the imprimatur deservedly bestowed
on you by CJ) I'm wondering if this is actually a song whose original
meaning is in the process of being lost in time - rather like the ten
quid from the bank in "Girl on a train".  Over the past thirty-odd
years, air travel has gone from being the province of the exclusively
rich (the jet-set, indeed) to something that many of us take for
granted.  This has been noted several times - most memorably for me by
an aged air hostess who contrasted the way in which people used to dress
in all their finery (quite impractically) to go to the airport with the
garb in which passengers turn up wearing nowadays ("as if they were
going to dig the garden").  See also that denizen of the jet-set, James
Bond, whose actions and thoughts on a flight to (I think) Zurich are
described in great detail in one of his books.  Len Deighton does the
same thing for Harry Palmer in "The Ipcress File". 

It could be then that when the song was written, the traveller was in a
better position to be compared to a medieval knight on a quest. 
Nowadays, however, there are just too many of them for it to be
noteworthy.

Cheers,

Jeremy

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:55:17 -0500
From: Chris Harris <email address>
Subject:  MV472: NTSC video

Steve,
        You should be getting my order and cheque for the  CD and Video any
day now.
Yes I should be able to do the PAL to NTSC conversions 'though I can't
promise to be particularly speedy in getting it done, however I'll do my
best to do it before Xmas. When will you be able to supply the VHS master?
I suggest that you send it recorded delivery marked for my attention  to
the company address which is ;
Tekniche Limited, 18 Boundary way, Woking, Surrey, GU21 5DH. I can be
contacted there office hours  on 01483 728006 if there's any queries.

Yes it was Hannington , I recall great fun driving along the farm track
during the snow. I still get vertigo recalling what it's like to stand
under the mast and look straight up, fortunately I never had to climb up
one. I did once get up the concrete tower (not the open lattice one that
fell down and frightened the vicar) at Emly Moor in it's lift. 

Chris.
   
==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:43:06 +0000
From: Gerald Smith <email address>
Subject: MV473: Magpie Direct

Hello All

	Has anyone else had problems in their dealings with Magpie?  They took
yonks to send me my new PA CD, and now that it's arrived, it's faulty.

I phoned about this earlier and the conversation went something like this:

	Me: Could you kindly replace the CD you sent as it is faulty.
	Magpie: OK. Send it back and we'll replace it.
	Me: What's your address?
	Magpie: Er...(lengthy pause)
	Me:Could I come and collect the CD in person?
	Magpie: Er...what do you mean?
	Me: Well, could I come over to your offices and pick up a replacement 
           myself?
	Magpie: No.
	Me: Why ?
	Magpie: Er...because we're a box number.
	Me: Oh, well can I get one anywhere else?
	Magpie: No.

Basically, this means that I must entrust the investment I made in the CD
to the tender mercies of Magpie.  Call me cynical, but I reckon the chances
of that CD 'arriving' are pretty slim, thereby obliging me to fork out
another thirteen quid for a new CD.  Anyone else had any problems ?


Gerry Smith

==============================================================================
From: cjb<email address>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:25:44 +0000
Subject: MV474: Emley Moor

Steve wrote, 
>  And Maurice and I were at Emley Moor (staffed from
>Holme Moss) during the 70s, so we may have met there.

Was that before or after it fell down ( to be rebuilt of course )?
And did you know that in the 70's Wakefield YHA went on a midnight
hike to the mast and the lads inaugurated E.M.M.P.A. Please please
use your imaginations and do not ask me to tell you what it stood
for ... all I can say is sorry Steve!!

A bit of pa content now - I was interested to read the comments about 
Beware of the Beautiful Stranger and the difficulties of the chord 
sequences. I always felt it would be wonderful to be able to pick up 
a guitar and knock out a song. 'Stranger' would have been on my list 
of the first to play cause I thought it sounded quite simple !!! 
Lucky I didn't decide to learn, I guess I'd have been diappointed.

I found myself humming a little tune over the weekend ..... "always, 
everything had gone so well" .... isn't that from "Frangipani was her 
Flower"? I thought I said I hated that!!!!!

Nice to read both Pete's and Clives comments on plagiarism and to put 
the subject into context. I'd started to feel that every 'reference' 
turned up was almost an accusation though I'm sure they weren't meant 
to be. Glad that the record has been set straight.
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~        
                _/\     /\_
    Cary       a    a
 Like Mary    @ 
    With  a     'C'    for cat
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(should show a cat - if not ... 
picasso eat your heart out!!)

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 19:30:08 +0000
From: Leslie Moss <email address>
Subject: MV475 Re: MV473: Magpie Direct

At 16:56 02/12/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:43:06 +0000
>To: midnight.voices<email address>
>From: Gerald Smith <email address>
>Subject: Magpie Direct
>
>Hello All
>
>	Has anyone else had problems in their dealings with Magpie?  They took
>yonks to send me my new PA CD, and now that it's arrived, it's faulty.

Gerald and others, can I put in a good word for Magpie. I placed a
telephone/credit card order and received the CD within 48 hours - and in
perfect condition. Admittedly I did order three copies, maybe that made a
difference to their promptness.

Incidentally, did anyone else get a copy of their catalogue (issue 57)? I
searched in vain for a reference to the PA CD, but no dice. Plenty of Billy
Cotton Band Show, Edmundo Ros and Dorothy Carless (who she?) but nothing
from our hero.

Leslie

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:36:53 GMT
From: <email address> (Michael J. Cross)
Subject: MV476 Re: MV473: Magpie Direct

In message <email address> Midnight Voices writes:
} Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:43:06 +0000
} From: Gerald Smith <email address>
} Subject: Magpie Direct
} 
} 	Has anyone else had problems in their dealings with Magpie?  They took
} yonks to send me my new PA CD, and now that it's arrived, it's faulty.
} 
[conversation snipped]
} 
} Basically, this means that I must entrust the investment I made in the CD
} to the tender mercies of Magpie.  Call me cynical, but I reckon the chances
} of that CD 'arriving' are pretty slim, thereby obliging me to fork out
} another thirteen quid for a new CD.  Anyone else had any problems ?

I received a faulty CD from Magpie - I phoned them and they said send it
back, and to add 'Freepost' to their address as printed on the slip that
came with the CD. So I did, and a few days later received a shrink-wrapped
replacement. So, no complaints from me.

all the best,
-- 
 Michael J. Cross    BSFA Magazine Index at http://www.mjckeh.demon.co.uk
    "Beware of the Beautiful Stranger/Driving Through Mythical America"
       by Pete Atkin & Clive James, CD reissue 11/97 on See For Miles
   For more info on all PA/CJ releases, see http://www.rwt.co.uk/pa.htm

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 23:10:39 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV477 Re: MV474: Emley Moor

Cary wrote:
>
>Was that before or after it fell down ( to be rebuilt of course )?
>And did you know that in the 70's Wakefield YHA went on a midnight
>hike to the mast and the lads inaugurated E.M.M.P.A. Please please
>use your imaginations and do not ask me to tell you what it stood
>for ... all I can say is sorry Steve!!
>
Well, both actually. A colleague of mine was minding the (BBC) shop there
on the evening the old tubular mast came down -- thought for a moment it
was an earthquake had brought the transmitters off. The IBA had a full
shift on in their building, but they were 100yds further away. Me, I was at
(then) home in Barnsley, watching TV. A momentary heavy ghost image, then
just 'snow'.

Yes, I think I can guess fairly accurately the lads' association :o)

Steve

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:45:04 -0700 (MST)
From: orange<email address>
Subject: MV478 Re:CHORD SEQUENCES

I'd like to add my belated agreement with the idea of the chord sequences
being responsible for much of the originality (and appeal) of the songs. I
think that one of the best examples of this is the song "Winter Kept Us
Warm" from "The Beautiful Changes". This song has reverberated through my
head over the years, and I still marvell at how Pete can go through so many
different chords and still arrive at the starting point.
If Clive's claim to genius is his lyrics, Pete's is in his chord sequences.

Jeff Moss  

==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 08:10:02 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV479 Re: MV472: NTSC video

Chris wrote:
>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:55:17 -0500
>From: Chris Harris <email address>
>Subject:  NTSC video
>To: Midnight Voices <email address>
>
>You should be getting my order and cheque for the CD and Video any
>day now.
>
Never mind the cheque Chris -- you're providing a valuable service f.o.c.
>
>When will you be able to supply the VHS master?
>
Next, week, when I get it back from the (PAL) duplicator. I'll get it to
you by Amtrak for security.

-- Steve

==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:53:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Elphinking<email address>
Subject: MV480 Re: MV473: Magpie Direct

Gerry,
I just find Magpie slow but perfectly responsible and respectable - they
publish a monthly magazine of their issues which is large and comprehensive
so they are hardly fly-by-nights.

==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 05:41:09 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV481 RE: MV479; MV472: NTSC video

>Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 08:10:02 +0000
>To: Midnight Voices <email address>
>From: S J Birkill <email address>
>Subject: Re: MV472: NTSC video

>Chris wrote:
>>When will you be able to supply the VHS master?
>>
>Next, week, when I get it back from the (PAL) duplicator. I'll get it to
>you by Amtrak for security.

To paraphrase Arthur Dent: "This must be some new usage of the
word 'Amtrak' that I wasn't previously aware of".  Over here, "Amtrak"
is associated with many things, but security isn't one of them.

ObPA:  As many will know, Pete would often say that some of the
songs were banned by the Beeb, not for salacious content, but
for excessive use of brand names (cf. comments about Have You
got a Bird (sic)).  A case in point was "The Wristwatch for a Drummer".
I remember Pete's other comments about this: apparently the song
arose out of observing band members at work and identifying
traits common to players of each instrument.

Drummers got "sexual frustration", on the grounds that it took them
so long to pack up their kit that, by the time they were finished, the
girls had gone off with the guitarists and the singer...

(Legend has it that Ian Anderson's uptake of the flute stems from
wishing to be a step ahead of the guitarist in the post-gig
sweepstakes).

Interesting hearing about the mast catastrophe.  All we ever got
on Teesside was the occasional massive explosion at ICI...

Dave Jones
Rochester NY

==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 15:56:17 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV482 Re: MV481; MV479; MV472: NTSC video

Dave Jones wrote:
>
>To paraphrase Arthur Dent: "This must be some new usage of the
>word 'Amtrak' that I wasn't previously aware of".  Over here, "Amtrak"
>is associated with many things, but security isn't one of them.
>
Hi Dave,
Over here Amtrak don't run any trains (yet -- I might have said that of
Virgin not long since), but they do operate a very reliable (in my limited
experience) next-day door-to-door courier service. They're smaller and much
more flexible than the likes of DHL/TNT/FexEx/UPS/ANC (they will pick up at
short notice and quite late in the day, even from our location out here in
the sticks), and they don't guarantee to lose one consignment in ten like
ParcelForce (formerly Royal Mail Parcel Post).

-- Steve

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 00:41:24 -0800
From: m.powell<email address>
Subject: MV483: Prince of Aquitaine

Aquitaine again

I enjoyed the rapid and apposite comments on my ramblings about TPOA.  
On reflection, I feel that the errant knight metaphor was stumbling a
little towards the end, and you're right in saying that it doesn' t work
so well now that air travel is within most people's means.   

I was interested in David's 'Prince as drug smuggler' interpretation. 
Mike has always inclined to this theory, and I've always opposed it on
the grounds of the Quest references.  I suppose the other element which
backs it is the 'kids with ancient faces who are praying for a hit.'  

On reflection - and taking into account Jeremy's theory that the Prince
of Aquitane line is an ironic insertion into an ordinary account of
returning to London - maybe an even better reading is to combine the
two.  

What if both the Grail Quest references (which are the bits I am
absolutely certain about) and the Romantic references are meant
ironically, as comments on what may be a prosaic trip and may be less
innocent?  The figure of the Prince would be even more interesting if he
had colluded in the destruction of the ruined men/tower.  

That would also give a meaning to the repetition of the chorus line
(used innocently as a convention by most lyricists;  sometimes used by
Clive & Pete for a particular purpose, such as underlining common
experience in No Dice and obsession in I See The Joker).  The Prince may
be returning to the ruined tower again and again, in an attempt to
alleviate his guilt.   This does not necessarily demolish my previous
conclusion:  moral culpability does not rule out the impulse for giving
and sympathy (look at Renton's guilt-fuelled visits to Tommy in
Trainspotting.)

I think this works much better:  thanks for coming up with it.

Mel Powell

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 00:40:16 -0800
From: m.powell<email address>
Subject: MV484: Laughing Boy

Laughing Boy.  

I agree with the Voice who's said already that it's too glib to
attribute the explanation that the narrator finds joy in the little
things of life, or can be dismissed as the sad clown.  On closer
examination, all of the vignettes in this song are double-edged.  Just
look at:

"I've seen a girl hold back her hair/To light a cigarette":   yes, it
could be the evocative gesture of a loved one.  I love These Foolish
Things too - and also They Can't Take That Away From Me ("The way you
hold your knife/The way you sing off key/The way you changed my life/No
no, they can't take that away from me").  But it seems to me that the
image is darker.  After all, the girl is pictured deliberately
restraining her hair, which is a symbol of beauty and vitality so
profound that in some cultures, women have been/are prohibited from
showing it in case they present too great a temptation to men.  And to
do what - to light a cigarette, which in our culture has a certain
transient sex appeal, but which ultimately will kill her.

"A kid once asked me in late September/ For a shilling for the guy" -
yes, it's cute, but isn't this example of greed and commercialism a bit
chillling in one so young?   (Especially when we're currently surrounded
by the trappings of Christmas which in some cases have been around since
mid-October.)

"I've seen landladies who lost their lovers/In the time of Rupert
Brooke" - the balancing humour of the following lines doesn't diminish
the pain of this image - particularly for those of us who've known a
lady of 70-odd who still keeps a yellowing photo of a 20 year old man on
her mantlepiece.

"I've seen the labels on a thousand bottles/For eyes and limbs and hair"
- yes, we know about the feminine mystery of the loved one's cosmetic
shelf from Brilliant Creatures and The Remake.  It's not a 20th century
phenomenon - Alexander Pope goes into a similar state of rapture about
the contents of Belinda's dressing table in The Rape of the Lock:  he
may pretend it's satirical, but it's so obvious that he fancies her.  
But at the same time there's the awareness of the artificiality of what
is loved and of "the vain promises on beauty jars" (Joni Mitchell
again).  The Beautiful Changes, after all.

In other words, the comic and tragic in life are so tightly intertwined
that it's impossible to separate them.   They differ in that at the end
of a typical tragedy, the stage is littered with corpses.  At the end of
a true comedy, it's full of people who have seen life and learned from
their experience.  Comedy is about learning, and a sense of humour,
which helps its owner adapt to the disappointments and limitations of
life, is one of the biggest survival advantages of the human species. 

In the song, the narrator is sensitive enough to be stunned by the
shocks inherent in modern life, but his ironic description of what he
observes means that he is seen by others as "Laughing Boy".  His reward
(if that's how you see it) is that he's *not* dead already, but will go
on accumulating these experiences, and hence more pain than others. 
Yeats made the same point in Lapis Lazuli:  it's frequently those with
little to lose who indulge their emotions.  Those who are genuinely
brave and gripped by tragedy express it through humour:  "They know that
Hamlet and Lear are gay."

Mel Powell

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 20:21:08 +0800
From: MM <email address>
Subject: MV485 Re: MV484 "Laughing Boy"

As I've never heard any of the songs yet, but am hoping to soon, I am
always impressed by the depth of the analysis.

When looking at the post about "Laughing Boy", the line about landladies
losing their lovers many years ago rang a bell with me.

"Falling Towards England", the second volume of Clive's autobiography,
tells of an actual landlady from his early days in London who was in
this situation, so it is possible he was thinking of her when he wrote
it.

It may be a form of atonement, because I seem to remember he expressed
some residual guilty feelings about not getting around to making it to
her funeral.

Murray McGlew

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:22:01 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
Subject: MV486 Re: MV485; MV484 "Laughing Boy"

Hi Murray,

>> "Falling Towards England", the second volume of Clive's autobiography,
>> tells of an actual landlady from his early days in London who was in
>> this situation, so it is possible he was thinking of her when he wrote
>> it.
>> 
>> It may be a form of atonement, because I seem to remember he expressed
>> some residual guilty feelings about not getting around to making it to
>> her funeral.

Not sure about this, but the only landlady I recall from that book was
the hilariously awful Hearty McHale (where the soubriquet was attached
ironically) who attracted very different feelings from CJ; indeed, if he
*was* feeling guilty about being able to attend her funeral one suspects
that it would have only have been because he'd been denied the pleasure
of dancing on her coffin...

But perhaps there was another, kinder, gentler landlady in there as well?

Cheers,

Jeremy

==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 00:30:44 -0800
From: m.powell<email address>
Subject: MV487 Re: MV486; MV485; MV484 "Laughing Boy"

Midnight Voices wrote:
> 
> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:22:01 GMT
> From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton)
> To: midnight.voices<email address>
> Subject: Re: MV485 Re: MV484 "Laughing Boy"
> 
> Hi Murray,
> 
> >> "Falling Towards England", the second volume of Clive's autobiography,
> >> tells of an actual landlady from his early days in London who was in
> >> this situation, so it is possible he was thinking of her when he wrote
> >> it.
> >>
> >> It may be a form of atonement, because I seem to remember he expressed
> >> some residual guilty feelings about not getting around to making it to
> >> her funeral.
> 
> Not sure about this, but the only landlady I recall from that book was
> the hilariously awful Hearty McHale (where the soubriquet was attached
> ironically) who attracted very different feelings from CJ; indeed, if he
> *was* feeling guilty about being able to attend her funeral one suspects
> that it would have only have been because he'd been denied the pleasure
> of dancing on her coffin...
> 
> But perhaps there was another, kinder, gentler landlady in there as well?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jeremy
> 
> =================================================================

Another 'bad Guy' reference

Since sending my last e-mail about Laughing Boy, I've remembered that TS
Eliot had a horror of guys (let me re-phrase that).

Due to his lack of familiarity with English Bonfire Night customs, TS
Eliot was a remarkably poor prospect for any kid to approach with a
request for a shilling for the Guy.  From his point of view, the
transaction involved walking along minding his own business, then being
approached by a strange child and invited to view an effigy stuffed with
straw, which he interpreted as an unsettling emblem of mortality - and
then invited to pay a penny for the experience.  No wonder he went home
and wrote The Hollow Men (second epigraph:  'A penny for the Old Guy'.)

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece stuffed with straw.  Alas!
Our dried voices, when 
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Not a pleasant image, even before inflation and rampant commercialism
took hold (and in September too, leaving several weeks of sales activity
before the vital cut-off date.)  On second thoughts, if the inspiration
only cost him a penny, he got off remarkably lightly compared with most
authors.

Mel Powell

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